Brewers concerned about Portland fluoridation effort
»Play Video
PORTLAND, Ore. – Brewers and beer drinkers know the most basic ingredient in their beverage of choice is water.
Portland beer makers like Bridgeport Brewing Company get their supply straight from the city. A city that could soon put fluoride in its water supply.
Brewmaster Jeff Edgerton says his beer is virtually fluoride-free.
“There is a natural amount of fluoride that occurs in our water as it is,” he said.
Friday evening, the City of Portland revealed a proposal to start fluoridating the water in 18 months, which is much sooner than city leaders have ever said it could begin.
Opponents of fluoride in city water believe the move was made to make it more difficult for them to gather signatures in time and stop fluoridation by a public vote.
Some beer makers are concerned that the addition of fluoride could affect their business.
“It doesn’t affect the brewing process per se. It’s pretty inert in beer. There’s no flavor,” said Edgerton. “Personally, I don’t want it forced on me. As a brewmaster, I have to think about my customers. I have to think about the people buying the beer and I don’t think they want it forced on them either.”
Fluoride supporters believe it can curb cavities in kids, while opponents believe it’s a dangerous chemical.
“Frankly, I wouldn’t know whether there was fluoride added to the water in the beer that I drink or not,” said beer drinker John LaVerdiere.
“I think it’s actually a good thing,” said Charmaine LaVerdiere.
Edgerton said Bridgeport isn’t taking a side, except when it comes to what customers care about.
“If people perceive it as being something that’s in the beer that’s going to cause them some ill health effects down the road, that’s the thing we have to be concerned about,” said Edgerton.
“They expect craft brews to be natural ingredients so in a way it taints the whole thing.”
This "regional allegation du jour" surfaced back in 2004 in Hood River when the brewers from Full Sail suggested the beer's taste would be altered if Hood River's water was fluoridated. An article in German was produced to alledgedly back up their false claim. We had the paper translated, and there wasn't anything to suggest the beer taste would be altered.
To confirm, a friend of a friend, who did international business in Germany, contacted the Emeritus Professor from the international beer institute where the article's authors were from. Please read below:  "Pants on Fire". Â
Â
From: Daniela Schulte
Sent: Monday, December 20, 2004 8:06 AM
Subject: AW: Brauwelt Jg. 117 (1977) Nr. 43, 27. Oktober
Dear Mr. Nelson,
The investigations have been done to appraise a possible influence of fluoridated water on malt and beer production resp. beer As the results did not give any hint for a deterioration, we did not pursue the subject further.
There was never a known problem in the malting and/or brewing industries after the application in some cities or communities.
Sincerely yours,
emer. Univ.-Prof. Dr. Ludwig NarziÃ
I live in an old area with steel pipes so I get a lot of rust. So years ago I installed a Reverse Osmosis filter to get some of the cr@p out of the water for drinking.Â
Â
I suggest anyone who has issue with fluoride (I do) do the same thing. It's like $200-$300 and is something anyone who can hook up a TV can install under a sink.
Â
 @Repoman A reverse-osmosis filter won't eliminate fluoride. It's a great start, even the fluoride filters don't completely eliminate it.
 @molotovmouseÂ
Bah, well I guess I will just have to acccelerate my move tot he sticks.
Â
If I wanted floride in my water, I would put it there myself.
Alright! Fluoridated Beer!!! Tastes Great...Less Fillings!
Fluoride in Portland's water reservoir should be the least of these guys worries . . .
Interesting concern expressed by those purveying alcohol, a known poison. I would rather see children with healthy teeth than cater to those who want to sell flouride free poison. And no, I am not a teetotaler. I drink my fair share of alcoholic beverages. The brewers can simply filter the water if they think the minisule amount of flouride affects the taste.
 @I812 Tell me again about healthy teeth.
Â
http://www.fluoridealert.org/researchers/epa/timeline/
@molotovmouse @I812 Thanks for the link to a biased website. Millions of Americans are drinking flouridated water every day without the problems this website notes. We are all individuals and, as your biased website indicates, some people are adversely affected by flouride. Some people are adversely affected by many things people generally consider healthy including milk, peanuts, and other foods. Some people are deathly allergic to what many consider to be life saving medicines.  In fact, there are likely people that are negatively affected by vitually anything one can name. But, the vast majority find these same medicines, foods, etc., beneficial. Public policy in this country generally is intended to be beneficial to the majority.
 @molotovmouse  @I812 Ooh, godwin'd it AND for BONUS points, bringing back the good ol' Communist argument used in the 50s & 60s, bravo!
@molotovmouse Being willfully ignorant is better than lacking the intellectual capacity to make that decision, which is apparently your affliction.
 @I812 What credibility do the willfully ignorant, like yourself, have?
@molotovmouse Anything in excess is not beneficial. Your histrionics are lessening your credibility. Oh, and the world is not flat and the earth is not the center of the universe.Â
 @I812 Drink up! you probably won't have a single problem. Yeah, never mind the historical fact that the Soviets & Nazi's used fluoride as a way to keep their people docile so they wouldn't question anything. I'm sure it's great stuff.
Wow, the FUD does come out, doesn't it?  You'd think this was a birther or evolution article.  A HUGE amount of substances we ingest are 'poisonous'; dose is what makes the difference.  For instance, one of the chemicals (NaF) some nutcase below is complaining about, has a LD50 of somewhere between 50-200mg/kg.  Guess what the LD50 for caffeine is?  About 127mg/kg.  And the amounts normally consumed for the fluorides are far lower than caffeine in tea or coffee.  Hexafluorosilicic acid is 70mg/kg.  I weigh (close enough, it closer to 90kg lately) to 100kg -- my LD50 would be about 7,000mg, or 7g.  The typical fluoridation amount is along the lines of 1.5mg/liter, so that means I'd have to drink 4600+ liters of fluoridated water.  Yes, that's how ridiculous the poison claims are.  12.6l/day to drink over a year to get that much.  If you're drinking 3 gallons/day, you have other issues besides fluoridation (And mind you, that's drinking the LD50 dose for a day -- over a year).  Energy drinks such as Monster have 160mg of caffeine per can/bottle -- and you all are kvetching about levels of 1.5mg/liter, 1/10th the level of that poisonous caffeine.  Can of Monster is enough to kill a 1.5kg person!  Crap!  It's poisonous, RUN FOR THE HILLS MA!
Â
 @brendan We are made from the dust of the stars which is highly radioactive dust, it follows we should all be dead. Just love logic don't you? Oh, maybe we should put vaccine in our water you know to save the poor people. We are so much smarter than they, it is our duty.
 @brendan If everything is a poison then why in the world would you intentionally want to add another one? Fluoride is an industrial byproduct. Only an idiot would think that adding industrial waste is a good thing just because everything is bad too. How stupid are you that you think adding a well known poison to the water is a good thing?
@brendan You're missing the point. We don't want stuff put into the water...period. Why do we have to have other people make our decisions for us??? It's not like this is the only way you can get fluoride. Give the kids supplements. Get them toothpaste. You have a choice in drinking supposed energy drinks and coffee...we should have a choice in what goes into our water. Unless you have no problem giving your car and laundry fluoride too and paying for it.
 @Bewitchin1  Yes, but *why* do you not want it put in the water?  Should we take out all the chloramines and chlorimines out of the water too?  Ammonia?
 @brendan  @Bewitchin1 "This is the real world, not Mrs. Tso-tso's 2nd grade class. "
I know, I learned by second grade to quote my sources....not pretend I said it, then try to slip some quotes in later.Â
Â
" it's the way a 5 year old throwing a tantrum argues"
No actually a 5 year old would not notice you not using quotes and pretending to write stuff you really didn't!
Â
"not only from the second paragraph"
What about the first paragraph....or first sentence....sorry, no quotes....no sources....nothing....even though you proclaimed the opposite you were wrong. Â Â See in Mrs Tso-tso's 2nd grade class understands the first paragraph is the most important, it sets the tone and draws readers in. Â You, however, tried to pass it off as you saying something instead of posting the website or using quotes! Â Sorry, those are just facts!
Â
"Â My whole beef is the FUD -- which you *happily continue to spread*"
Yep, using the bag sodium fluoride comes in,and pointint out a Harvard Peer Reviewed research project that proves it lowers IQ is FUD.....yep, you sure showed me!
Â
Bottom line, you tired to pass something off as you saying it when indeed you copied and pasted it from the web. Â If you did that in school you would get an F and maybe get suspended for cheating!
 @B Smizzle  @Bewitchin1 Oh good lord.  First, quit straw-manning the quotes -- I saw the end quote on it, and presumed it was already quoted.  Not everything is cited on these boards, and it's PRESUMED someone can Google for stuff if they want to and it's *easily found* such as that VERY famous quote.  This is the real world, not Mrs. Tso-tso's 2nd grade class.  To anyone who has the brain of a gnat it's obvious, not only from the second paragraph, but from the many other comments on this board, that I do quote items when it needs to be quoted.
Â
Where in my original argument do you see me stating a side on whether or not it should be in the water?  My whole beef is the FUD -- which you *happily continue to spread*.  Stop using argumentum ad metum -- it's the way a 5 year old throwing a tantrum argues -- not to mention it's fallacious.
 @brendan  @Bewitchin1 actually no...you did not put any quotes around Paracelsus, the father of toxicology, which just happens to the be quote you started with. So you start off quoting but not using quotes to make it seem as though YOU are saying it....sorry to use common sense and facts to prove you wrong again but it is just so easy!Â
Â
Next time source your references with a website like everyone else does and use quotes on EVERYTHING you copy and paste from the web....
Â
Also you never got back to me on the fact that no matter if you think sodium fluoride is good or bad for you why should it be forced on everyone if you can purchase fluoride treatments in the store if you so desire? Â Why should the tax payers cough up $35 million plus ongoing costs? Â Do you really trust the sodium fluoride that comes from China?
Â
See bewitchin1 you don't have to fear his big copy and pasted words, he really isn't as smart as he is trying to portray himself....smart, no....smug, yes!
 @B Smizzle  @Bewitchin1 Yes, hence the QUOTES AROUND IT - To show it's quoted.  </facepalm>
Â
I suppose you get a bronze star for the fridge for 'effort'.
 @brendan  @Bewitchin1 Hahahahahaaaaaaa I knew it....I knew it...hahahahahahaha....YOU CUT AND PASTED FROM WIKIPEDIA......Oh brendan you are just oh so smart.....please keep cutting and pasting big words from the web it just makes you sound so smart!
Â
You said......
"The term "poison" is often used colloquially to describe any harmful substance,
particularly corrosive substances, carcinogens, mutagens, teratogens and harmful pollutants, and to exaggerate the dangers of chemicals."
Â
Wikipedia said.....and it even has the same spacing...bwaaahhahahahahaha
 The term "poison" is often used colloquially to describe any harmful substance, particularlycorrosive substances, carcinogens, mutagens, teratogens and harmful pollutants, and to exaggerate the dangers of chemicals.
Â
You saidÂ
"Paracelsus, the father of toxicology, once wrote: "Everything is poison, there is poison in everything. Only the dose makes a thing not a poison.""
Â
Wikipedia said
"Paracelsus, the father of toxicology, once wrote: "Everything is poison, there is poison in everything. Only the dose makes a thing not a poison.""
Â
Hahahahahahaaaa, BUSTED! Â Next time mix up the words just a little bit, all I had to do is type EXACTLY what you wrote and BINGO there was the page you cut and paste from. Â Also cutting and pasting from Wikipedia is soooooooo obvious!Â
Â
Â
@bewitchin1Â
Oh let him spout and puff his chest out and use (cut and paste from the web) his big words. Â No big words and no amount of inteligence can beat common sense so he will not touch this with a 10 foot pole.
Â
If you are for fluoridation (more than toothpaste) then go to the store and buy and fluoride treatment for yourself.  No matter if you believe it is good or bad, why FORCE something on everyone?  Why spend $35 million on something people can already do if they chose too?  There are already so many contaminates in water, why add more?  Especially when good oral hygiene to begin with solves the problem on it's own.  Floss, brush after every meal it is not that hard!
 @brendan  @Bewitchin1 Oh yeah and you didn't mention the fact that if you dump sodium fluoride in the ocean you will get fined.....yeah, just keep saying "DUH..but I drink my water and I don't die so that proves it IS good for me" BRILLIANT!
 @brendan  @Bewitchin1 Yeah you are right it is disingenious to point out Sodium Fluoride is POISION....how silly of me!  Yes, lets all start drinking poison, any poison, in small amounts because it is not actually poison because when you water it down it won't kill you....BRILLIANT.  Why does my tootpaste tell me to call poison control if I swallow more than a pea sized amount...after all it won't kill me so why should I call poison control  Chernobyl  did not kill EVERYONE right off the bat, so I guess radiation from a melted down reactor is GOOD for us...right!
Â
Also notice you have no answer to the common sense question about if you want to fluoridate you teeth, you have the ability to do it now OTC, or how much it will cost the city, or HARVARD STUDIES THAT PROVE IT LOWERS IQ's!  Brilliant.... ignore and maybe it will go away!Â
Â
"I can almost guarantee you consume 100s of poisons everyday"
And every day 100's if not 1000's of people get diagnosed with cancer....I am sure it has NOTHING to do with the Chronic effects of all the contaminates we ingest huh?
Â
""The term "poison" is often used colloquially to describe any harmful substance, particularly corrosive substances, carcinogens, mutagens, teratogens and harmful pollutants, and to exaggerate the dangers of chemicals.""
Oh so I can eat sodium fluoride and be okay....after all they are just EXAGGERATING THE DANGERS...however I like how you say they just use the word poision for something that is particularly corrosive, carcinogenic ect. ect.....DUH... POISON!
 @brendan   Who care about poison lets call it industrial waste which it is. Do you think drinking it is good? I don't care how many PPM it is. I don't want to pay money to have industrial waste put in our drinking water.
@brendan @B Smizzle Brendan...you're not impressing anyone with your choice of words. So glad you're a genious...maybe fluoride in your water growing up gave that to you. I'm tired of choices being taken away. And this is one that has no indisputable prove that it's harmless.
@brendan @Bewitchin1 I don't want it because I don't want to have to pay to fluoridate my lawn and wash the clothes...and no one has thus far given me any real reason to need or want it. My teeth are fine...do I need one more chemical in my system because I have to worry about kids and people who don't take care of their teeth??? There has been nothing to prove to me that it won't harm me or interact with the 2 Rx's I already have to take. Give me irrefutable prove so I can decide for myself whether I want it or not.
 @B Smizzle  @Bewitchin1 How disingenious to point FUD-like at labels that say poison.  Paracelsus, the father of toxicology, once wrote: "Everything is poison, there is poison in everything. Only the dose makes a thing not a poison."
Â
"The term "poison" is often used colloquially to describe any harmful substance, particularly corrosive substances, carcinogens, mutagens, teratogens and harmful pollutants, and to exaggerate the dangers of chemicals."
Â
I can almost guarantee you consume 100s of poisons everyday,and do so willingly, because *dosage* is what counts.  Oxygen, water - both can be poisonous, but I don't see you chicken-littling over the fact there's water, a poisonous substance, in our water.  It's the reductio ad absurdum to your claim.  Start showing me stuff that says 1.5mg/liter is poisonous.
 @brendan  @Bewitchin1 "Yes, but *why* do you not want it put in the water"1. Because if you want to fluoridate your teeth you can buy fluoride rinse at the store!  No need to force it on everyone if you can already do it yourself.
2. Because it will cost $35 million which we don't have.
3. Because it has been proven to lower IQ via Harvard Peer Reviewed study among many other studies.
4. Because some people believe adding a waste byproduct from the manufacture of aluminum and fertilizer, which is illegal to dump into the ocean and comes in a bag that says "DANGER....POISON - TOXIC BY INGESTION TARGET ORGANS....Kidneys, Bones, Central Nervous system, gastrointestinal system, teeth..." might....just might, not be that good for our health.
http://www.indybay.org/uploads/2011/02/22/fluoride-warning.jpg
Â
"Should we take out all the chloramines and chlorimines out of the water too?"
It is up to you, I choose to that is why I have a reverse osmosis system in my house.Â
Last year...A decision this week by a Florida county commission to stop adding fluoride to its public drinking water has uncorked a decades-old debate on the benefits and potential risks of fluoride despite widespread scientific support of the practice. STORY: Fluoride safety debate bubbles up once again
Â
This in June...
PHOENIX -- After more than 20 years of adding fluoride to its tap water, the city of Phoenix is considering putting an end to the practice.
The issue is on the agenda for Tuesday's City Council meeting. While the fight over fluoridation  is not new and certainly not limited to Arizona, Phoenix is the largest city in the country to consider suspending its municipal fluoridation. Phoenix is the six-largest city in the U.S.
Â
This 7 years ago...
On November 8, 2005, Bellingham residents voted 53 - 47 percent to keep their water clean and rejected fluoridation.
Â
And in Europe:
Austria Austria has never implemented fluoridation.[23]
Belgium Belgium does not fluoridate its water supply, although legislation permits it.[23]
Czech Republic Czech Republic (Czechoslovakia respectively) started water fluoridation in 1958 in Tábor. After six years, 80% reduction of decay was asserted[citation needed]. This led to widespread introduction of fluoridation. In Prague, fluoridation started in 1975. It was stopped in 1988 there and subsequently in the whole country too. Currently (2008) no water is fluoridated.[36] Fluoridated salt is available.[37]
Croatia Croatia does not fluoridate its water.[38]
Denmark Denmark does not fluoridate its water, although the National Health Board is in favour.[23]
Â
And this is just a short list of all European cities who either implemented fluoridation and suspended it, or never started it to begin with.
 @Bewitchin1 How many suspended it, but went to fluoridated salt?
 @brendan  @Bewitchin1 Salt if labeled is a choice ...and there is always the blood pressure medicine industry we should protect...right?
@brendan "1) 97% of western Europe has chosen fluoride-free water. This includes: Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Iceland, Italy, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Northern Ireland, Norway, Scotland, Sweden, and Switzerland. (While some European countries add fluoride to salt, the majority do not.) Thus, rather than mandating fluoride treatment for the whole population, western Europe allows individuals the right to choose, or refuse, fluoride."
This comment has been deleted
 @HarryJuku Best not to mess with mother nature. Our water is the best in the nation why change it? Its $35 mill just to set it up then $10 mill per year after that. I don't want my taxes $ going for industrial poison.
This comment has been deleted
@HarryJuku
http://www.indybay.org/uploads/2011/02/22/fluoride-warning.jpg
Â
Note what is on the bag on the last one...DANGER....POISON - TOXIC BY INGESTION TARGET ORGANS....Kidneys, Bones, Central Nervous system, gastrointestinal system, teeth....Â
Â
Oh but wait, HarryJuku said it wasn't poison!Â
 @HarryJuku  @CorporateCowMoo Ever heard of Chronic exposure....of course not!
Â
yeah, it's not poison....except it says so right on the sodium fluoride bag!
I'm just a cow but our water is nice and clean here in Portland. I don't want anything added to it. If poor people have bad teeth then send them a case of toothpaste. To just set up the infrastructure for water fluoridation is about $35 million, a case of toothpaste is way cheaper. Ingesting fluoride is not good for your teeth. It's not truly natural calcium fluoride, but fluosilicic acid toxins being pushed as fluoride. What cities call "fluoride" is actually a toxic cocktail of over 100 deadly industrial chemicals and heavy metals, many of which are purchased in bulk from China, where industrial processing plants are trying to get rid of their excess toxic waste by labeling it "sodium fluoride." Sam Adams and his cronies are probably taking bribes as Portland is one of the last major cities that hasn't been tainted by the fluoride scam. I stamped my hoof on the petition and you should too. http://www.change.org/petitions/city-of-portland-don-t-add-fluoride-to-portland-s-drinking-water
First of all, it needs to be stated that the 'substance' referred to as 'Fluoride' is a misnomer - there is no such substance listed in the periodic chart of the elements, nor in the prestigious CRC handbook, nor in the sacred 'bible' of the pharmaceutical industry - the illustrious 'Merck Index'. Instead, we find a GAS called Fluorine - and from the use of this gas in various industries such as aluminum manufacturing and the nuclear industry -certain toxic byproducts are created which have 'captured' fluorine molecules.
First of all, it needs to be stated that the 'substance' referred to as 'Fluoride' is a misnomer - there is no such substance listed in the periodic chart of the elements, nor in the prestigious CRC handbook, nor in the sacred 'bible' of the pharmaceutical industry - the illustrious 'Merck Index'. Instead, we find a GAS called Fluorine - and from the use of this gas in various industries such as aluminum manufacturing and the nuclear industry -certain toxic byproducts are created which have 'captured' fluorine molecules. One such toxic, poisonous 'byproduct' is called sodium Fluoride - which according to the Merck Index is primarily used as rat and cockroach poison and is also the active ingredient in most toothpastes and as an "additive to drinking water".
 @HyloRD Wow.  Surprised you didn't call out oxygen and water as poisonous as well.
@brendan @HyloRD Oxygen is a poison, as is water. The critical criterium is how much you ingest at one time. Any substance can be a poison if used unwisely.
 @brendan  @HyloRD Wow.  Surprised you didn't call Arsenic and Strychnine health foods!
If anyone is worried about cavities than eat healthier. STOP eating sugar.
@stellbell Can't be done. Virtually all foods break down into some form of sugar or similar substance that can feed bacteria in the mouth. Better to practice good oral hygiene over the course of one's lifetime. Brush with baking soda & salt, rinse with diluted hydrogen peroxide. Bubbles for days!
This comment has been deleted
 @HarryJuku Oh really....explain this Juku
http://www.indybay.org/uploads/2011/02/22/sodium_20fluoride.jpg
Â
http://healthwyze.org/images/sodium_fluoride.jpg
(yes, that is sodium fluoride used as PESTICIDE....oh but it's not poision.....um, yeah......)
Â
http://www.indybay.org/uploads/2011/02/22/fluoride-warning.jpg
Â
Note what is on the bag on the last one...DANGER....POISON - TOXIC BY INGESTION TARGET ORGANS....Kidneys, Bones, Central Nervous system, gastrointestinal system, teeth....Â
Strange Juku....you say it is not poison and want to know if ANY of us took science in the 7th grade.  I did, now I have to ask you, did you take reading in Kindergarten?  It is not poison yet is says "POISON" right on the bag......guess you just got kicked in your HarryJuku!
@HarryJuku I just checked my toothpaste. What the others are saying about the warning IS TRUE. Are you still ok with it being added to the drinking water?
@HarryJuku Well, how about those of us who don't want to ingest fluoride on a regular basis? Should government - at any level - be able to force a person to ingest something the person doesn't want to ingest?
 @HarryJuku Its very poisionous. Read your toothpaste warning label. A new harvard study shows it lowers IQ
 @HarryJuku Hey genius.. it IS poison. Do you even know where it comes from or do you just blindly believe its wonderful goodness?