Oregon lawmaker: Teachers should be allowed to carry guns
MEDFORD, Ore. (AP) — An Oregon lawmaker contends the massacre that left more than two dozen people dead at a Connecticut elementary school is another "heartbreaking failure" of school personnel to ensure protection, and is a reminder that teachers should be allowed to carry guns in the classroom.
State Rep. Dennis Richardson, a Central Point Republican, wrote in an email to three southern Oregon school superintendents that gun bans on school property must be overturned, the Mail Tribune newspaper reported Saturday.
"If I had been a teacher or the principal at the Sandy Hook Elementary School and if the school district did not preclude me from having access to a firearm, either by concealed carry or locked in my desk, most of the murdered children would still be alive, and the gunman would still be dead, and not by suicide," he wrote.
When contacted by phone, Richardson added that he believes at least three officials in every school should be trained in the use of firearms.
In 2009, the Medford School District barred a South Medford High School teacher from bringing her gun to school. The teacher later lost a court appeal case.
"We need to ensure that our children are safe, and we can't do that by disarming those who are on the scene," Richardson said.
Medford police Chief Tim George disagreed with Richardson, saying that it's not the responsibility of teachers to make deadly force decisions on the job.
"Teachers don't go into teaching to be police officers, they want to teach kids," George said. "In crisis situations there are a lot of very complex things happening all at once and you have to constantly train for deadly force incidents."
Medford schools Superintendent Phil Long, who received the email from Richardson, said he believes it's best if teachers focus on getting children to safety if a shooting occurs. The district trains its staff in lockdown procedures meant to protect children from violence on school grounds.
Long said the district called attention to those safety procedures in the wake of the Connecticut tragedy. Employees were reminded of where to go and what to do should such a situation occur in Medford.
"I know (Richardson) is well-intentioned when he says this," Long said. "But we can't jump to conclusions immediately after a tragedy like this occurs."
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Information from: Mail Tribune, http://www.mailtribune.com/
"Medford police Chief Tim George disagreed with Richardson, saying that it's not the responsibility of teachers to make deadly force decisions on the job."
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that is the stupidest comment I have ever heard! Every teacher in that school had to make the deadly decision to give up their own life.Â
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Tim George you're an idiot!Â
Require all teachers to have full-auto AK-47's or M-16's with 40mm rocket grenade launchers. Â Then they only need to spray the hall with bullets and fire a grenade. Â A few teachers and students will be wounded by friendly fire but that's expected. Â It probably would be better to double wall the schools with barbed wire, and have a security person checking at each fence gate with a kill zone in-between. Â That's where the pit bulls run loose. Â But none of this stops the throwing of explosive devices or noxious gases.
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@RandyH After reading this inane BS i realize your mother should have swallowed.
Teachers should be trained and just like in other schools our schools should be hired by out of work vets, or someone with training in these types of circumstances. Why should we fear evil men/women when we can protect ourselves against them?
Now cops are saying that teachers should be armed.
http://stlouis.cbslocal.com/2012/12/17/county-police-chief-recommends-arming-school-personnel/#.UM9lS20M3TY.facebook
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I agree. He clearly points out the rejecting of the school district of the heroin problem.
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Everyone is saying we should look at something new. Well this is new but since it involves guns it is rejected without any debate. Typical of the left.
I gotta say the police chief's view seem nuts to me. He is basically telling you to depend on the government to come in and save you. What is the first thing the government says in a disaster? DONT depend on the government, help yourself!!I think it's best to leave these types of things to trained professionals assuming they can arrive at the scene in time and nuetralize the threat before anything happens. But I would not want to depend on them. "Please Mr. nut job please wait for law enforcement before you start shooting people." Yea like that's going to happen.
 @mike Legally the police are not even required to respond although they do they don't have to and you can't hold them liable for not coming.
Finally, a lawmaker that is making sense...so many of the dolts we have elected seem to be picking this time to grandstand...whatever happened to sanity?  Gun control is not the answer...Since it became impossible to help the mentally-ill and we let them loose on the streets the problems have gotten out of control....
While this idea and its implementation is problematic, if a teacher in the Connecticut school could have saved even one of those babies from being killed.........I'm all for it !
I disagree with this whole thing, becasue if the teachers crazy tey might open fire as well as anyone else.. STUPID!!
@robtan due to your lack of education i have decided you should have been an abortion.
 @robtan People like you let your emotions get ahead of the facts.
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A teacher can walk into his or school any day of the week with a gun, and open fire.
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When has this happened? When have teachers ever carried a weapon to school and started opening fire?Â
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When have legally-acquired weapons been stolen from law-abiding citizens and been taken into places where weapons are illegal and used them to commit violent crimes against innocent people in spite of "contingency plans" and "security protocols"?
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When has that ever happened?
 @robtan Right, because there's tons of folks here with CHL's that just open fire and kill innocent people. By the way, when was the last time this happened? You have a link?
 @poopstainmonkey  @robtan Did you notice that this question is never answered? There's an anecdotal story out there, like the Empire State shooting.
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On the other hand, there are gun-shows. Gay, straight, liberal or conservative, statistically one of the safest places to be on planet Earth is an old-fashioned gun show where, in fact, there are more guns and ammunition than attendees.Â
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Somehow, in spite of all the anti-gun ranting, you never hear about crap like this happening at ultra-redneck events like a NASCAR rally or a gun show.Â
 @robtan I agree, robtan. Until we have perfected a way of determining whether a teacher is so morally responsible that they aren't pedophiles, I certainly am not willing to assume that most of them should carry weapons. To my knowledge, there are no "tests" that can determine who is stable (and who is ALWAYS stable).
 @SilverGuardian  @robtanÂ
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When has a teacher ever opened fire on a classroom?
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Haven't you seen "Breaking Bad?"Â We better not let chemistry teachers have chemicals because how do we know they're not going to turn into meth dealers?Â
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How do we know the shop teacher isn't going to start running kids through the bandsaw?
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How do we know the school cook isn't going to poison them all?
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How do we know the bus driver isn't going to snap and shoot everybody?
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How do I know you're not trying to keep people from having weapons just to increase the amount of chaos you can bring upon my community? Because the fact is, I trust a teacher around my child WAY more than I would ever trust my child around you.
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So, why would I trust you? Because you claim to be a law-abiding citizen?
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When have any of THESE things ever happened?
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"Medford police Chief Tim George disagreed with Richardson, saying that it's not the responsibility of teachers to make deadly force decisions on the job".
Tim George, you are wrong.
They already had that decision made for them when the murderer entered the school.
Now it is self preservation of the children and themselves. They deserve that right.
@Nomo Also curious is that Chief Tim George apparently forgotten that the threat (badguy) determines the level of force used not the cop or even the teacher. That is current police training. Force used by police or citizens in self-defense is always reactive to the threat level of the badguy, hence the badguy choses the level of force..
 @Nomo Riiiiight. And I would want my little kids to walk daily into their classrooms and have the opinion that guns are necessary in order for them to be safe ... that's sure to give them a sense of comfort and well being. Plus, I'm thrilled with the idea of arming all teachers, cuz we KNOW they are all stable <NOT>. And gosh ... then a child who might otherwise feel capable of telling a teacher NO, if the teacher is a pedophile, would maybe just give in, knowing the teacher is carrying a gun.Â
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OH, and the highlight of the idea, is that if a teacher became infuriated at a student (whether the student was deserving or not), would maybe be able to just make that child sit down and shut up because they physically fear the teacher.
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Yeah, yeah. This is just an awesome idea. Let's do it.
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<mutter mutter idjets mutter mutter>
 @SilverGuardian  @Nomo If guns aren't necessary for safety, why do we have a military - and why do all our police officers (and private security..) carry firearms?
 @SilverGuardian  @Nomo "mutter mutter idjets mutter mutter"
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If you're going to call people idiots, have the courage to come out and say it. Puke-stain.
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Unless they screen teachers each morning on the way into school, which they don't, teachers can carry a concealed gun to school any time they want, and they can lock the door down from the inside of the classroom and execute the kids one by one.Â
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The only problem with that theory is, it doesn't happen. You're blathering theoreticals that could ALREADY HAPPEN BUT DON'T.
There would be a Sweet intelligent young teacher alive if she had been armed. She hid her children and was promptly killed by the Killer. When she could have shot him when he stepped into her room had she been armed.
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 @Yamhill354 I feel as horrified and sorrowful about this as anyone. I have shed tears over it and choke up when speaking of it. And yet, I'm capable of thinking and recognizing that armed teachers aren't the answer. Honestly, do you want your children and grandchildren to grow up in an era which presumes they are all in danger when they attend school? This is what will happen, if you arm teachers. Further, exactly what test do you think is available that would assure you that a teacher with a gun will never make a child feel completely insecure? What test is available that will assure that every armed sixth grade teacher is so physically fit that no bruiser of a student, in a rage, can't overpower her and go on a rampage?
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HONESTLY ... almost every reason for having more gun laws start being totally REASONABLE every time you guys go off on these non-thinking, completely reprehensible tangents! I don't even WANT more gun laws, until I see how many people that are in favor of arming the entire population are so clueless.
 @SilverGuardian  @Yamhill354 X amount of teachers who are willing to do so could carry weapons concealed when they feel like it, so nobody ever knows who has what when. It is not necessary to say "ATTENTION EVERBODY. MRS. JONES IS ON THE DUTY ROSTER THIS WEEK" or show it to people. They don't have to be wall-penetrating or even lethal rounds. Just some way for the teacher to get the shooter to do something besides shooting at kids. But, listen:
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You sound like a weapons-retention expert. There are trainable tips for making sure a rampaging person can't take your weapon--assuming they know you have it--and I'm sure you've studied and drilled a lot and know all about them. You see, I, who have invested thousands of dollars, countless hours and energy coming to know and understand these things needs a lecture from somebody like you as to what some person might theoretically do to me. So, share.
 @Yamhill354 This is 100% correct - especially had she been armed with a modern combat handgun, like the FN Five-Seven. Easily makes kevlar-only vests obsolete.
As I see it, since our Oregon school system is faiing our students when it comes to teaching, perhaps those teachers/school administrators who are trained in firearms useage can at least help to keep our kids SAFE while in school.
 @wondering I think your system failed you.
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Opinions are cheap, huh?
How would it be any more expensive to hire a couple of security cops for schools??? How much would it cost the schools to equip each teacher with a gun...provide for training and continuing training...pay for teachers licenses to carry these guns....pay for psychological testing to determine if they should be equipped with a gun...and for the extra on the insurance that schools will have to provide in the event of something "accidental" happening??? That would be more expensive than paying a yearly salary??
 @fracas I see nothing wrong with the notion of hiring security guards. We are going to have quite a number of unemployed soldiers returning to us. If we can ever be CONVINCED and CERTAIN that we are capable of not hiring someone who is psychologically unstable, I agree with the notion of security guards. It seems to me worthy of consideration.
 @SilverGuardian  @fracas
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Okay, we're getting somewhere here.
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My weapons, CQB, DPPST and security instructors (it's a long story) are all combat veterans or otherwise returning from Iraq. I know lots of them. They're all doing things like courthouse, port and public security right now. They're, um, unarmed. Or maybe the are...I never know. You can't tell just by looking at them.
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The interesting thing is, none of these guys has ever opened fire on the people they're charged with protecting. None of them are psychologically unstable, nor am I, and some of them would be available immediately for full-time work.
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Gotta get past the conservatives who want to shrink budgets and the liberals who think that karma, reverse-911 and hall monitors have something to do with protecting whackos from killing people. When we get there, we're somewhere.
This just happened yesterday...how did KATU miss it?? And this was reported by ABC News too. A man was arrested Saturday after firing about 50 shots in the parking lot of a Southern California shopping mall, prompting a lockdown of stores crowded with holiday shoppers. Marcos Gurrola, 42, of Garden Grove was taken into custody by bicycle police officers patrolling around the open-air Fashion Island mall around 4:30 p.m., police spokeswoman Cathy Lowe said. She said he fired into the air and onto the ground in the parking lot near a Macy's department store.
 @fracas That's clearly impossible and a made up story! California gets an incredibly score from the Bradys... http://www.bradycampaign.org/stategunlaws/scorecard/CA/
Its not madeup at all. Read the paper or watch the news online.
 @peckishpete You flunked out of "Sarcasm & Irony 101" didn't you?
Oh my god, teacher with a gun!https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/182382_457163937674657_1324181300_n.jpg
@poopstainmonkey That's right. Isreal doesn't have US Style School Massacres (or school killings in Europe and elsewhere in the globe)...and why??? Because their students are in danger every day from being maimed and killed by incoming missiles. Her big ol' shoulder thing won't do her much good if a missile is coming her way and she can't get the kids to a shelter in time. Just stupid~
 @fracas  @poopstainmonkey
It's very interesting to me that Israel doesn't have US style school massacres, and that the Israeli teachers have weapons.
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Hmm. Thank you for pointing that out. Why don't you suppose the anti-gun lobby doesn't want me to make that connection?  'Oh yeah, well, guns won't protect them from MISSILES! What about MISSILES, HUH?'
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Just stupid.
 @fracas  @poopstainmonkey Yup yup. And Israel is exactly the country I want mine to become ... not
 @SilverGuardian  @fracas  @poopstainmonkey One without school shootings?
I consider myself very liberal, but this argument is ridiculous. Teachers are the ones responsible for students safety. Nobody wants to embed a SWAT/SERT team in every school, or if they do, there isn't any money for it.
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Oregon allows CONCEALED HANDGUN LICENSES to be issued. Oregon is an OPEN CARRY STATE - MEANING YOU CAN CARRY FIREARMS OPENLY WHEN IN PUBLIC. Municipalities restrict that right according to their own sets of laws (and how much they want their citizenry to be vicitimized - which is usually top of their priority, so they can claim theres not enough "Tax dollars").
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If you want to stop these school shootings, people are the schools need to be armed and at an expert proficiency level with said firearms. That could be executive staff, teachers, or embedded SWAT/SERT team.
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The problem with the "locked in the desk" argument is that concealed carry means ON YOUR PERSON. Meaning, that teacher will have a weapon ON HIS OR HER BODY, CONCEALED FROM VIEW. Even the ORS regarding CHL says that at no point can a CONCEALED HANDGUN BE VISIBLE TO ANYONE. THAT MEANS NO BRANDISHING! No one even has to know that particular IS CARRYING A HANDGUN until there is a clear and present THREAT to the lives of the people visible to that teacher.
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Get a clue, people. Just because a teacher might have a handgun doesn't mean little Jimmy will get it from the teachers desk. It also doesn't mean the teacher will shoot children (couldn't they already physically beat the children, if there was valid cause for concern?).
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I say, if the teachers want to carry, let them carry - legal or not. If a teacher stops a school shooter while carrying an illegal firearm, I'll gladly donate half my yearly salary to their legal defense fund and push that they be hired by my local school district.
 @poopstainmonkey Got it. Already understood that. Tell me, monkeypoop ... do you trust every teacher? None of them ever go postal? None of them ever do reprehensible things? None of them ever get so angry at a student that when they are enraged, the class will never have a sense of fear because the teacher is carrying? Also gotta just ask ... do you have children? MY children and grandchildren have a sense of security that comes from NOT feeling that we need to carry our guns in order to BE secure.
 @SilverGuardian  @poopstainmonkeyÂ
 @SilverGuardian  @poopstainmonkey I carried a concealed .45 into my daughter's school on Friday after carrying it around a local airport.
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Guess what. Not only did nobody stop me from walking into my child's classroom with a gun, nobody knew about it at all.
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Your trust issues didn't stop me either.
 @Playanekes  @SilverGuardian Finally, someone with common sense. Concealed means NOBODY KNOWS BUT THE PERSON WHO IS CARRYING.
The solution here is simple: Teachers that want to carry should just carry concealed. The whole point of carrying concealed is that NO ONE KNOWS YOU ARE CARRYING A FIREARM. YOU DON'T F****** BRANDISH IT AT ANY POINT UNLESS THERE IS DANGER TO INDIVIDUALS LIVES.
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While I question the motive for creating a law that supports this, teachers are ultimately the ones responsible for the safety of the children in their classrooms. Unless heavily armed officers are embedded at each school, the responsibility absolutely falls on the teacher's shoulders.
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If said teacher wants to protect their children, they will carry and be at an expert proficiency level with a handgun.
 @poopstainmonkey The point of such a law would be to close the public employee contract loophole.
 @ChrisJ82 Which contract loophole are you talking about?
 @SilverGuardian  @ChrisJ82 The same argument can be used against the folks with the finger on the nuke button, who fly nuclear armed bombers, who operate M1 Abrams, who carry rifles while wearing a uniform, carry handguns while wearing a police uniform, etc. When do you stop trusting the police?
 @Playanekes  @AlwaysArmedAmerican  @poopstainmonkey Don't test that theory in either Burdick's or Feinstein's districts.
 @AlwaysArmedAmerican  @poopstainmonkey  @ChrisJ82 The guy that STOPS a school shooting spree will not go to prison regardless of what he does. No community would allow it.
 @poopstainmonkey  @ChrisJ82 The teacher I know who conducted a 68-kid youth orchestra concert at Clackamas Town Center in the food court two hours before the shooting does not carry a weapon, smoke pot at home, have sex with students, tolerate smoking...  She just doesn't. Nor do the three other teachers I know. In fact, they're the most conservative, 19th-century-uptight people I know until after 10 on Saturday night when the margueritas come out. Then they're just conservative.We used to camp out for Metallica and Ozzy tickets together in front of the Rockwood GI Joes when we were sophomores in high school.
 @SilverGuardian  @poopstainmonkey You're already trusting your kids to these teachers. They don't need a CHL to cause mayhem, when normal household cleaning chemicals are all that's necessary.
 @poopstainmonkey  @ChrisJ82 Precisely. And you are absolutely convinced that anyone who can get a concealed carry permit is .. and will remain ... so stable that we should be glad to have them carry guns in classrooms? Teachers are that flawless? They don't do horrible things?
 @poopstainmonkey  @ChrisJ82 I am absolute agreement with you both!! Here is the problem, and it's one of moral character, really. In Oregon, the law allows CHL in schools-here comes the but-unless a police officer, you will still be criminally charged if said firearm is used in self defense or defense of another on/in school property. How stupid is that!?! Personally, I would take my chances in court. I wouldn't let some stupid Oregon law stop me from protecting our precious treasures in our schools. But, I am sure this is quite a deterant for most people. Seems to be the general rule is CYOA...and that is a sad mentality. Thank you both for exercising common sense...let's hope it's contagious.
 @ChrisJ82 We are definitely on the same page. Kudos.
 @poopstainmonkey But we're talking about the good ones here, the kind that follow the rules, even the rules that are themselves wrong.Â
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Which is why we'd need to fix the rules, and it's not like the folks in the academic ivory towers are willing to do that. To them more dead bodies is a good thing.
 @ChrisJ82 I would argue that plenty of teachers already break the rules - sex with students, smoking pot at home, giving students tobacco products, etc. Let them break the rules in a positive way.
 @poopstainmonkey They wouldn't, but the existence of the rule serves to discourage it regardless.Â
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After all, are you going to break your employer's rules, especially so if it means you will become not just unemployed but also unemployable.
 @ChrisJ82 How does the employer even KNOW that the teacher is carrying a gun in the first place - that is the whole point of my argument. Concealed carry means CONCEALED CARRY. Last I checked, teachers are not patted down or strip searched everytime they enter the school.
 @poopstainmonkey While there are no legal impediments to carrying in schools, a public employer can ban employees with their employment contract, ie. they can be fired. This is precisely what the Oregon public school system has done.