Startup to produce electricity with Portland’s drinking water

Watch enough Portlandia episodes or simply walk down the street, and it’s clear Portland is the place to find people “going green” (I’m finally starting to figure out how to correctly separate my dinnerware into the appropriate bins). People don’t just sustain sustainability – they also embrace and create it.
It’s why startup Lucid Energy, Inc moved to Portland in 2011. The company knew it could find investors and customers here. And it did – expect a funding announcement soon.
Get ready Southeast Portland – you are about to become part of a pilot project to create clean energy using the city’s water pipes.
“To me, Portland is the best place on the planet to build a clean-tech company,” president and CEO Gregg Semler told me over the phone. “If you can’t find somebody in Portland or in the Northwest interested in technology for clean-tech startups, you’re missing something.”
How it works
I’ll leave the detailed engineering to someone else, but here are the basics on how it works: Water moving through the city’s pipes creates energy that's typically wasted. Lucid Energy will install turbines in the city’s main water pipe (see photos) and turn that energy into electricity. The city will be able to sell some of that power back to PGE and make money.
Semler says a private investor will foot the bill, meaning the city gets the clean energy for free. The investor will own the system and will split the revenue with the city.
He plans to keep a similar financial model if the project is further implemented.
“This is really a move on the part of the city to reduce the cost of delivering safe, clean drinking water,” Semler said.
Construction on the pilot project is set to begin in mid-March in the area of SE 147th and Powell Boulevard. The four turbines will create enough around-the-clock energy for up to 150 homes.
“It seems like a very promising technology,” said Associate Professor of Law Melissa Powers. Powers teaches energy and renewable energy classes at Lewis and Clark Law School and is on the board of the Northwest Environmental Defense Center. She says Lucid Energy offers reliability and efficiency.
“The power generation would occur in the city, close to the site of consumption. A number of studies have identified the many benefits of this type of distributed power.”
But Powers acknowledges downsides too, including the uncertainty that comes with any startup.
“The technology is still new, so it will take some time to fully examine the risks,” Powers said. She also questions how long it would take to get the full benefit of a more widespread project.
“It seems like installation will be slow and cumbersome,” Powers explained. “It might take awhile to make the turbines meaningful power producers.”
She’s encouraged that the project underway in Riverside, Calif. seems to be going well.
Lucid Energy, Inc. is also working with San Antonio, Texas and Haifa, Israel. China has also shown interest. But Portland will have the first and largest commercial project.
“We’re really excited that Portland is willing to do this project. It’s hard to be innovative in the water space because it’s a conservative industry, but this really helps us scale our business,” Semler told me. “Eventually everyone’s going to say, ‘why aren’t we doing it?’, and as a startup, you have to get to that tipping point.”
Melissa Powers please go back to teaching law and leave the engineering field to engineers.
The water system is driven by pumps connected to electric motors as the water pressure drops more pumps come on line to maintain the pressure.  This generating system will cause a pressure drop and more pumps to come on line using more electric power.  There is no free lunch.  This is a totally dumb idea.
Why not just have a water-for-gas system installed on all the city cars?  With the fruit jar under the hood connected to the battery you can have a true perpetual motion machine. Just google "water-for-gas" there are hundreds of suppliers and people right here in town willing to take your money and install it.
The water power system is ridiculous and just as stupid as the water-for-gas thing. Is this a joke or is the city really considering this nonsense?
This is a scam.
They did this project in Riverside California so I looked up their water system.
I guess this is a good way to get electricity - from somebody else.
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 Where does Riverside's drinking water come from?
All of Riversideâs water comes from groundwater resources pumped from local area wells in the Bunker Hill, San Bernardino, and Riverside Basins.
Let's keep this simple.
If it is gravity 'propelled' it could work (like a dam).
If these devices are downstream of a pump the energy being gained is being taken from the extra work a pump must do.
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If this works, and it sounds rather promising, Portland should not reap the benefits from this! The taxpayers should! They have been scalped for their taxes for the "sewer improvement" fund, yet their funds were WASTED on green bike boxes and bike lanes around town. That money needs to be earmarked, irrevocably, until all sewer lines of Portland have been upgraded.Â
 @washcomom Sorry, I just can't stop laughing at your naivete that funds generated from the water system would be used for the water system. :D
 @Saltire I know, right? ;-) It's such a wish - like blowing on a dandelion and knowing that no weeds will sprout from the seeds.Â
This technology has been around for decades. The city should have installed turbines years ago. Of course that wasn't on Randy Leonard's radar. He was all about spending money on such projects as Houses, Rose Festival Buildings, and Toilets, rather than making money or at least offsetting some costs.  Now he is enjoying Fire and Police Disability and Retirement Fund payments and PERS payments. Great legacy for Leonard and he is still spending the city's (i.e., taxpayers) money on his two city pensions.Â
Hey, I got a perpetual motion machine I can sell you, also. For those who think the gravity fed sections could stand a small reduction in PSI, those pipes often work in siphon mode are are pulling water up the other side. If there is too much PSI somewhere in the system, turn down the power at the injection pump. That'll save more energy than you can recover because the recovery system is probably only 20-30% efficient.
Nothing like polluting our drinking water to make money for the city to waste.
 @hankhandsome Please tell me how these items would pollute the water? In order to be used they would have to be made out of food grade stainless steel, the same material used in restaurants for their storage containers and prep counters.
Sounds like a win-win for both sides. Finally the City of Portland does something that makes sense.
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@Dr. Rawdog Producing hydroelectric energy is a function of available head (water column height or pressure) and volume. Because much of the city's water supply has substantial head, it makes sense. Typically the head in the sewer system is minimal making hydroelectric power generation infeasible.
This should at least produce enough electricity to recharge all the batteries for the headlights people use on their bicycles...maybe.
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And you can be as optimistic and innovative as you like, but the total POTENTIAL energy of the entire Portland water system can't be anywhere near enough to make a dent. Even if we ignore the energy needed (pumps) to get that potential energy in the first place.
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 @Fed up Fed  @al_02 1-5 PSI is pretty minimal. Most people probably won't even notice it.
 @al_02 Not to mention the pressure drop created by having obstructions in the pipe, and accommodating by increasing the water pressure by putting more power to the pumps.
 @Allan @al_02 Exactly. The only meaningful place to extract the "waste" energy would be at the end of the line in the home. This is such a load of snake oil it's amazing that anyone could fall for it.
 @Fed up Fed  @Peregrine  @Allan Maybe, yes, no, I have no idea. Certainly the thought of a million little power plants in everyone's yard had some attraction. If for no other reason that it gets us out of building power lines- something that NOBODY wants anywhere.The real question though-does it make any sense? It certainly takes "energy" to build all these things-even solar cells take quite a bit of electricity to make. And the maintenance loads of all these little generators and turbines comes into play as well. And finally, would we be better off using whatever resources we have spent on little water supply turbines to just add another powerhouse to Bonneville Dam, or (heaven forbid) a nice nuclear plant in the Pearl.
 @Fed up Fed  @Peregrine  @Allan As I recall, the Platte reservoirs are served by either the Bull Run watershed (between Sandy and Mt Hood), or by a bunch of groundwater wells. I believe the Bull Run to Platte is mostly gravity fed, so yes, there is some energy to be recovered. Obviously there is no net recovery from water pumped up from the ground.Is there enough head pressure at Bull Run to bleed off some energy for turbines? No idea, and I'd probably spend the day trying to figure it out. Certainly if investors are willing to put up money, somebody must have thought of it.As for energy after the reservoirs, I doubt it would be practical, there are just too many hills to pump water up and over in PDX. Similarly, I believe all the other sources of water in PDX require pumping.My point was, and still is, that we are talking about round-off error in the total energy supply of Portland. Sure, we might all feel good that we got enough power for 150 homes-say a MW or two- but PGE delivers something like 3000-4000 MWs.So it is not that I don't believe it works, or that you couldn't get some power out of water flowing downhill, but it just isn't going to matter all that much.
 @Allan  @al_02 This is exactly what I was thinking. Is the "wasted" energy he was talking about actually the water pressure in your home?Â
This is far more aesthetically "green" than polluting the landscape with 400-foot wind turbines; a plague currently consuming Eastern Oregon. I'm guessing pipe turbines mainly work where water falls via gravity, since pumped water already has nullifying energy inputs.
The naysayers and negative neds on here really crack me up. I can imagine that these people do not have an innovative bone in their body. I can imagine them many years ago... "This automobile thing will never work. Look how much it will cost to build roads all across the country. This technology doesn't stand a chance!"
 @randola Don't let little things like the laws of thermodynamics get in the way of your innovation!
@randola    How creative.
Cost has nothing to do with it. Â If it's green, it doesn't make any difference if it is cost efficient. Â Just look how much money the government has wasted on failed green energy attempts. Â Taxpayer money. Â I think they came here because Portland is an easy mark for anything that claims to be green, even if it isn't.
 @Shadow Why would you doubt this technology? It wouldn't cause eyesores, and it seems like the equivalent of a hydroelectric dam, with no need to build new ones. I'm thinking they will place these below reservoirs on hills for "free" energy via gravity. It's something I would have thought of. They'd just need to make sure debris are self-cleaning.
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Even in Portland's cloudy climate, it seems like solar panels should be on every possible structure that can supply grid input or private electricity. Truly green technology should not add physical or visual burdens to untouched landscapes.
How about solar powered large fans to blow away rain clouds?
@jpk I think you might have something there! You should submite that to the Pres, you could get billions in funding!
And on rainy days, we could pay minimum wage to homeless folks to aim flashlights on the solar collectors. The flashlights don't need no batteries either, they could run on normal breathing air flow!Â
So power is going to be generated by a turbine connected to a water main. This water pressure is created by pumps to move the water through the pipes. So someone expects to generate power from a system that is already consuming power. There is no such thing as a free lunch or free power.
 @hokeywolf Get real. Logically, these will be placed below hillside reservoirs, like those at Washington Park or Mt. Tabor. The engineers obviously have accounted for input vs. output. Anyone can armchair quarterback something they are too dim to consider in the first place.
@Alec Sevins Do you know what water towers and reservoirs in the city are for? The water district uses pumps during low use time to fill these towers and reservoirs so that there is enough pressure during peak times. Again no such thing as a free lunch.
And you don't have to get personel just because you are not educated.
 @Alec Sevins  @hokeywolf Perhaps.  But, if this works so well, why no data from their previous installation in the article linked...??  I mean, if these guys really have something fantastic, why so data on the number of KW / Hr's they produce and what the real cost of those KW / Hr's are...??I can be easily convinced with facts....there just don't seem to be any.  Don't tell me they have "....obviously have accounted for input vs. output....." then accuse me of being dim because I question the actual efficiency and cost basis of the system.  Gee, it's not like our local and state government haven't wasted millions of dollars on green energy before....oh, and they chose this area for a reason.  Hmm......
 @Physics Guy  @'CouvGuy  @Alec Sevins  @hokeywolf ".... Hey Mr. CouvGuy, there is no such thing as a kW / Hr (kW per Hour or kW divided by the number of hours)....".   I stand corrected.  KW per hour is most certainly KwHr, rather than divide as my notation implies.  It implies an "area under the curve" function, rather than a divide by as my notation suggests.  You're correct.
 @'CouvGuy  @Alec Sevins  @hokeywolf  Â
 Hey Mr. CouvGuy, there is no such thing as a kW / Hr (kW per Hour or kW divided by the number of hours). kW / Hr has absolutely no physical meaning. What you and others of like mind are probably are trying to say is kW-Hrs or kWh (i.e. kW produced multiplied by the number of hours). Note that the "-" in the first form is purely a notational convenience, and means multiply, in this context, not subtract. KWh is the preferred format, and is a measure of energy, and is what we pay for from our energy utility. Â
 @hokeywolfÂ
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Actually in Portland nearly all the water pressure is generated from the height difference (and volume) of the location of the Bull Run watershed. Thus it is gravity fed.
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Indeed should Portland lose power, nearly all users in the east would not suffer significant water shortages
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But still youâre correct in the conservation of energy. What would be lost is pressure. But considering the amount of pressure lost in elbows, volume changes (large pipes to small pipes to large pipes) and changes in elevation (from Bull run, down to undergrounds reservoirs up to Mt. Tabor down to the street up to your second story etc), and other imperfections, this addition would be minimal.
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@hokeywolf No, but there is such a thing as wasted/excess pressure which could be put to better use. That's what they're gonna be using. In turbines installed in spots where there is a drop in elevation. You armchair engineers might want to take a few minutes to read up on this before you brush it off, the kneejerks are ridiculous.
 @pdx_echo  @hokeywolf You echoed my own comment. I bet most of these naysayers are Republicans who think oil is abiotic and global warming is a hoax.
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More people need to understand the realities of "peak" oil, coal and natural gas. Claims of "100 years of natural gas" via fracking are over-hyped when you study the actual returns on wells vs. industry claims. Even Obama got duped by that one.
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âConservatism is the blind and fear-filled worship of dead radicals.â [Mark Twain]
 @S_O_P_A  @Alec Sevins More like Obama has duped most of America....
 @Alec Sevins  @pdx_echo  @hokeywolf Excuse me? I'm a Republican and if this idea works then I'm all for it. By the way, I also have solar panels on my home and I currently have enjoyed an average savings of about $65/month on my electric bill.
 @Alec Sevins  "...Obama got duped..." Not sure that's a prudent thing to say about Dear Leader. I see a re-education camp in your near future.
 @Alec Sevins  @pdx_echo  @hokeywolf Last time I checked, Alec, the laws of physics and conservation of energy weren't the purview of any political party....   If there are solid facts and data about what the real world results are of a system like this, please, let's get them out.  If not, I suppose you can simply call the skeptics republican troglodytes and laugh uncomfortably....
@Alec Sevins @pdx_echo BTW I'm a Dem and if I had my way we would be installing solor cells eveywhere and putting money into the grid.
 @pdx_echo  @hokeywolf You may want to reconsider the use of the word "armchair"....I'll bet there are more engineers reading and commenting than you think....;-)
 @Fed up Fed  @'CouvGuy  @pdx_echo  @hokeywolf That's an interesting short clip.  The city engineer says quite plainly that the turbine produces "....four to six kilowatts..." of energy.  Yet, the presentation from Lucid Energy later in the clip shows production of 35 to 105 KW per turbine.  Seems to be a little delta there.  No mention of maintenance costs.
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I never said it wouldn't work, but my question is how well does it work, and what are the real world, long term costs? Â Let's say it does produce enough energy for "three or four houses" as the city engineer says...how many houses do we have in PDX...?? Â It's going to take quite a few of those turbines to make a significant dent in the power grid requirements.
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Hey, if it's green, it has to be good, right? Â It doesn't have to pencil out, doesn't have to be cost effective, doesn't have to be proven. Â Let's throw local, state and federal dollars at it and watch the green electrons flow. Â There has been so much waste on energy companies that promise 'green' energy....all I'm asking for are some solid facts. Â Until then, I remain skeptical.Â
 @pdx_echo  @hokeywolf My skepticism is that this looks much like another "...if it's green, it has to be good...". company.  If it works, let's see the data from the other city they've already got this tech installed in...??
@pdx_echo First off I am an Engineer. Second, it was not my intent to dismiss the idea completely, just to point out problems in the idea. Third in engineering you always need someone to point out the problems early to fix them. so If I came off as negitive then sorry, that's the nature of the beast (engineers).
And lastly most pressure comes from gravity and I believe that turbine source is already being used by PGE although I could be wrong.
@'CouvGuy @hokeywolf An actual detective shooting off half-formed ideas based on incomplete information on the internet is still engaged in armchair detectivework. The same applies to any actual engineers out there who dismiss this technology based on this information-free puff piece. Appealing to your own authority? ;p
@hokeywolf  Seems like it'll also cost more to generate enough pressure to drive the turbins,
Very good point!