Argument leads to shooting death of man in Aloha

 @RalphCramden 

Suicide is not just a personal choice. Very often it is a failure of people and systems to respond to a desperate need. Labeling them people "who want to die" because we don't have an easy, cost-effective solution only makes people feel better and leads to a further lack of caring and attention the problem needs. Far easier to put all the blame and responsibility on the suicidal individual, who very often is mentally ill enough that their 'personal choice' is anything but. NO ONE WANTS TO DIE. They only see no other option. Frankly, it's very depressing to hear that your wife deals with suicidal people. One can only hope she doesn't think like you.

 @Chase

"Actually, you're the one who cited the bogus statistic about homeowners being harmed by intruders turning homeowners' weapons against them.

 

Your assignment Agent Chase, if you choose to accept it, is to go back and pull out that statistic from one of my posts.

@RalphCramden @ormom @rem417  RalphC....  Keep up the good work

 @ormom  @rem417 

 

You will just choose to ignore any statistics that do not fit your ideology. Clearly you are not an independent thinker.

 

Your methodology is to have an hypothesis and then find data that backs up your answer and ignore data that contradicts your hypothesis. That is not how sound science is done but so typical of those who don't want the truth because they can't handle the truth.

 @gofigure  @ormom 

 

The antigun Violence Policy Center http://www.vpc.org/press/1009ccw.htm

says that CWP holders murdered 202 people from 2007 to 2010. This is compared to the approximately 32,000 firearm murders in the same time period (by extrapolation) by non CWP holders.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States#Homicides

 

That figures out to be 0.6% of murders by those with a CWP.

 

What the Violence Policy Center fails to mention is that with or without a CWP these murders would still have happened. CWP's are not needed to carry a gun in your own house which is were most of these happened. So their argument is nothing but a smoke screen for the ignorant. Statistics can be made to stay anything.

 @ormom  

 

Suicide is a personal choice. It is not up to government to stop me doing what I want with my life. If I choose to kill myself then so be it. We need to stop spending billions on those who want to die.

 

Not to worry though. Once the money runs out then there won't be any treatment for those who are wanting to die and they will get their wish.

 

More guns in the hands of reasonable people will make life safer. Guns in the hands of lunatics is not a solution to anything. The problem that you don't get is that lunatics have guns illegally and law abiding citizens have to carry guns to protect themselves from lunatics with guns.

@ormom Actually, you're the one who cited the bogus statistic about homeowners being harmed by intruders turning homeowners' weapons against them. You were asked to support it with documentation. You can't, because it's been so successfully refuted that even rabid gun-banners have dropped it. Cite reference so I can be more specific. But of course you can't, because you don't know what you're talking about. That's what I usually ignore. You're all pushed out of shape beacsue I reply with data to prove my point? That's a retort on a level with "Oh, yeah?" (By the way, what's lot's mean?)

 @rem417

By all means, do share your statistics that prove me wrong!

@ormom @Chase Just go to the FBI statistics. IF they do not give the information you want, continue to make up your own statistics! - Bottom line is: We have a Second Amendment that allows citizens to own guns. If you don't like it don't own a gun! But you sure are using the First Amendment to falsify facts about the Second one!

 @Chase 

You are citing a very narrow statistic (criminal home break-ins) and ignoring the issue I raised. Either you don't see the bigger picture of gun violence, you choose to ignore it, or you choose to misdirect the discussion by citing only the data that you think proves your hypothesis.

or admit that in a moment of carelessness your child could kill a sibling or a playmate with your 'protection'. And don't pretend it can't happen to you. If it can happen to a cop's kid it can happen to anyone's.

If you get any statistics at all it will most likely exclude any domestic violence deaths and just focus on stranger to stranger crime.

 

You don't need a calculator to know that more people die at the hands of someone they know than by a stranger. But you won't hear the gun nuts tell you that because it runs counter to their delusions and lot's of others will deny it too because it's too scary to contemplate. It's easier to think you can carry a gun or keep one at the bedside and protect yourself from a criminal than to admit it's statistically more likely your spouse or teen could snap and off the entire family with that same gun.

 

@ormom "The reality is that you are far more likely to be killed by the gun in your own home."

 

Ormom can't provide documentation, because it's not true. This is a lie exaggerated by anti-gun media people like Ann Landers in the '90s. It's long been deunked. The original "statistic" was based on skewed data from a study in Cincinnati. Landers was dissatisfied ith the original bad data and escalated it in her column.

 

The real data is home invaders are more likly to retreat when threatened with gun than to be shot. If the gun owner is shot, it's usually in a gun battle with the un the home invader broght. That would be my reality rather than to be murdered on my knees begging.

 @ormom  @RalphCramden "There have been very few cases of a person with a legal gun that has murdered an innocent person." 

Can you please cite your source? I am very interested in this topic. Thank you.

(I know you did statistical analysis for the government, but would still like to know your actual source and/or link to back up this statement. My son is on debate team and this information could really help him. Thanks again.)

 @dynamited77  @RalphCramden 

Excluding death by suicide from consideration only makes sense to people who think life is cheap, or should be - at least the life of others (billions of dimes and all that trouble). So typical of the-do-whatever-you-want crowd as long as you don't bother me or cost me anything.

 

There is no way to put the brakes on gun ownership and no reason to even try. My gripe is the intellectual dishonesty and illogic of the people who spout off on forums that more guns in the hands of individuals leads to being safer. More guns leads to more violent guns deaths - period - or don't you read the news. One of the safety statistics you don't have to put in your analysis is the number of lives that were saved because someone in a fit of rage didn't have a gun at hand. But you all go ahead and suck that my-gun-makes-me-safer pacifier.

 

Plus, which is worse, the criminals or the the gun-packing idiot vigilantes (or wanna-be Bernie Goetze's) who populate these forums, that think using a gun at close range in a bus full of passengers is a good idea. Would you feel better somehow dying by one hand than another?

 @ormom  @RalphCramden Stop with the logic, this is an emotional issue raised by man-children still playing cops and robbers.

 @ormom "The reality is that you are far more likely to be killed by the gun in your own home. by your own hand or that of a family member, than by a gun belonging to a stranger."

 

Are you counting suicide in this statement? Probably. If you weren't, the REALITY is that you are NOT more likely to be killed with your own gun.

 @ormom 

 

You make a statement about a gun owner dying by his own gun yet don't offer any links. If you did offer the links they would all come from the antigun crowd.

 

At one time I did statistics for the government. I know all about statistics because one of my degrees is in economics and statistical analysis is something we use to track economic trends.

 

The statistics you refer to included those who have used a gun to commit suicide. If you take that out of the equation then the odds of dying by your own gun are significantly lower than dying by falling.

 

Antigunners want to make the stats look really bad to bolster their argument that guns in the hands of law abiding citizens should be banned.

 

As for suicides I have seen thousands over the years. Most were drugs. Some were hangings, jumps, suicide by cop, slashed wrists/throats, and so on. Guns were not all that common at least in Portland.

 

If someone is so miserable that life is not worth living and wants to stop the pain then who am I that I should try and stop them. Government spends way to much time trying to stop people from killing themselves. In fact my wife makes a lot of money dealing with acute suicidal patients. Most of them she sees over and over and over and over.....all on the taxpayers dime, or should I say billions of dimes.

 

Following your logic then having pills in the house means that you are more likely to die that homes without pills. If that is the case then we need to ban pills.