After murder-suicide, judge defends denial of mom's custody request

It isn't just women that are not being protected, it happens to men too.  Just read the prior posts.  Once someone gets an Order of Protection they should not be re-violated by their tormentor and our injust system.  It means what it means, you don't want any contact with them, so they can't contact you and you can't contact them.

This is how our system is protecting victims of theft, harassment, threats and physical assault. This Perp stated that she was receiving emails and text messages from her victim, but was never asked by the Judge to submit one single piece of evidence. She couldn’t have anyway, they were all fabrications in the perp’s mind to try and discredit her victims. Her victims had a stack of physical evidence against her. This just goes to show that you can go about terrorizing your victims and hide your violent side by volunteering for agencies such as SAHM and Women Space. Who is donating money to Woman Space, they need to know what type of people they allow to volunteer there. Why is this perp allowed to work with the ill or elderly? Just because the police never arrested her, there is call after call by more than a dozen victims in two years (even her own husband) and the perp goes about her business. While going through the court system, I believe it was the Perp who had an anonymous woman pose as a court advocate stating she would help me in court and be by my side, never showing up in court. I have all the emails to prove this happened. Two days before court, I finally revealed the name of my harasser to this advocate and she never contacted me again. I believe it was all the perp's doing to find out about all the evidence that was available to use against her. This is why I am in the process of wring a book. All documents will be printed in the book as evidence to support the victims accusations against the perp. Victims can't get the newspapers to write a story on how victims are not being protected and allowed to be re-violated. They don’t want to step on any political toes. Those calls will also go into the book. I feel for the Engel's families and friends. The system is letting victims down on a regular basis. Anyone who has similar stories who wants their side heard, let your story be told. So your loved ones and the pain they endured by a broken system that failed to protect them are never forgotten. I still seek justice and will get it by writing this book and putting the perps own words into print for all to read. Those who said they would come forward and help only to be tampered with and were then afraid to come forward and tell the truth, shame on you for fearing you might lose your job if the perp files false reports against you. You are cowards.

 

Victims AND the perp were chastised in court by one Judge stating "this was childish behavior" and then stating “it's just drama". After the Perp found out I had subpoenaed the Social Security Administration to prove she had either lied about filing for disability or was lying to the SSA about her being disable to cover her tracks, during this time she was out dancing, playing pool, managing and playing on a local bar's baseball team AND riding mechanical bulls in Bull Riding Contests. She stated to the Judge that she just found out she was not eligible for protection against her victims. She just didn’t want to be caught in the act of perjury, but the Judge still allowed the perp’s OP’s to stand against her victims, even though the perp admitted she was not eligible to any protection under Oregon’s guidelines. When one victim asked the Judge to seal the false and retaliatory OP against her, the Judge asked why, is it embarrassing? Well, yes, it was and it was defamation of character since everything this woman did to me, others and her public nudity she blamed on her victims. The perp is not a disabled person and she only claimed to be to have access to the DA’s victim’s services department (that she knew well) and to file false, retaliatory orders of protection against her disabled victims in an attempt to further humiliate, and re-violate her victims. The Judge this day only allowed the Perp to make a statement; saying the victims would be able to speak afterwards. Then denied the victims the same opportunity under the Oregon Judges code of conduct that reads everyone who has an interest in a case has the right to be heard. Then the Judge asked the victims if they wanted to continue, they both said yes. That is when “all three” involved were told this was childish behavior and just drama. The Perp and her friend then went on FaceBook mocking the Judge by twisting what the Judge said, posting that her (victim) was “laughed and thrown out of court and that the Judge didn't want to see her (the victim) back in court, but probably would”. But the Judge really stated that “she hoped all could become friends again (we were only acquaintances) and that she hoped she didn't see any of us back in court”. The perp and her friend also were making social networking remarks, that the victim was just a “fat cow". Hmm…funny at the time the perp had dozens for friends/acquaintances that were two to three times the victim’s weight. All this after the Perp told the Judge that “she and her husband decided to close their FaceBook accounts”. It never happened. She just continued to make inaccurate comments and quotes. I heard 10 months later, that she was trying to get back on FaceBook after FaceBook closed her account. For why, I don’t’ know, but I would speculate she was continuing her harassment towards other victims.

 

The witness down played an incident in a work report that involved all three and falsified employment log just so she would not have to get involved, even though two months earlier she said she was willing to and wished she could be there because the perp was a psycho. This witness stated to me the Perp was "just a lush and a psycho" and that "she never had served me an alcoholic drink in the three years of knowing me”. But in court, after the Perp tampered with her, she stated under oath that she couldn’t say if she ever served me alcohol. Most know me as the "Cranberry Juice Lady". The perp knew the Court system well after volunteering for a teen crisis center and for Woman Space. When I asked for additional time to prepare my case (I needed to serve 10+ subpoenas on local police officers, because Judge Number 5(?) stated that victims could not bring in signed affidavits, signed statements or copies of Police reports. Victims that day were told that they had to have the actual Officer's and other witnesses present and in court. The Perp balked at the idea and I was only given two additional days. The perp also told the Judge that her attorney was not present because she was in fear of me, the victim. I never threatened her and the only contact I had with her was after the Judge put the perp’s attorney in charge of settling the OP’s and I found out the perp lied to the courts and her attorney about certain times and dates and I would not sign any papers until those were corrected. I believe in my own opinion, the perp’s attorney was not present because she found out all the lies and violent background of her client and wanted out. After being given only two additional days to prepare (which I needed because I care for my ill Mother 24/7) I immediately went to subpoena the police officers. The local police department refused to accept the subpoena’s stating that they needed at least a 10 day notice! Being disabled I did not order copies of police reports. 1) Because the Judge that day stated police reports were inadmissible without the Officer's being present, 2) the cost. Being disabled I am on a limited income. I later heard there was a second disabled vet that the Perp used his ATM bank card to withdraw money for him, and then did a second transaction without his authorization, pulling out hundreds of dollars for her gambling habit. He found out only when he saw he didn't have money in his bank account to pay his bills. When he asked then perp money back, she drunkenly screamed "If you want your money back you will have to take me to small claims!"

The two disabled victims go to court to face perp. perp brings an attorney after noting in Court documents she would be representing herself. She hires her victims’ girlfriend's attorney, which is a conflict of interest. Later, one victim applies to have the order of protection reinstated after two incidences of intimidation and perp making a scene. Per court paper’s state if you feel you are still in danger you can reapply for protection and there does NOT have to be any NEW incidences, the victim had no reason to lie about what happened since court papers state you can reapply without any new incidences if you still feel in danger. Victim's witnesses were not allowed to testify on what they heard over the phone, because they were not physically present during the additional intimidation by perps thugs and when the perp sent one of her thugs over and he tried to beat and kick in the front door.after police were called he yelled you have been served. Served without knowing if the person is still in the home and without verify you are serving the correct person, then filing documents that he served the victim 20 blocks from actual break in attempt. Three months later, perp finds out who the males was that tried to break down their door, ID’s that perp in a photo lineup. He tells police that he came to my home, asked for me, but I said I was not me. It was after dark, this man was a small, dirty mongrel who was filthy and smelly with tattoos all over. He told police that after I said I was not me, he made contact with my harasser and determined it must have been me that answered the door. My sister and nieces are my height and wear glasses, how would he be able to confirm that unless she was sitting in his truck outside and saw me. Of course I was not going to tell a smelly dirty stranger that reeked of booze who I was since he did not identify himself or say why he was at my home. But female perp writes a letter to the Judge saying “he never saw her, he never spoke to her and would not know her if he pasted her on the street”. She also claimed in the letter to the Judge that she nor her husband were in a biker gang and did not own a motorcycle. Hmmm. I was anonymously given photo’s my mutual acquaintances showing a motorcycle sitting in their garage. The perp’s husband was in a motorcycle accident and they were in the process of replacing the motorcycle. DMV records showed they owned motorcycles and were registered to them. The perp and her friend’s statement that she sent to our home, terrorizing my terminally ill Mother whom I care for, and their conflicting statement prove they are liars. Are they charged for false statements to the police? No. Two of the victim’s witnesses who said they would testify only if subpoenaed never showed up in court after being served. Records found later show that the Perp tampered with both said witnesses in person; one witness stated that Perp turned her supervisor in to the OLCC. It is my belief she doesn’t want any false complaints filed against her. The other witness knew about the Perp’s violent tendencies and after saying she would sign an affidavit and a copy delivered to her, for her to make any corrections, deletions or additions; after the Perp went to the witnesses work and confronted her she never signed the affidavit and then never showed up in court after being served a valid subpoena

The victim wanted to know what happened to her; she contacts police to have them investigate. It goes through two agencies, and the perp claims it was the victim that was sexually assaulting her and other people, the perp had no witnesses. And the entire city knows those were the perp’s actions. The victims had a least 13 witnesses between them, but the victims, nor their witnesses were never heard in court. In the beginning the disabled victims had been told that the only way they could file for legal protection was if they were married to, living with, a family member of, or in a sexual relationship with the perp. BUT.... if they were elderly or disabled they could file for an Order of Protection under the Elderly or Disabled Order of Protection law. Three weeks after being served, the perp files against her victims claiming one of her victims was in on a specific night threaten ting and harassing her. Employee’s working that night knew the victim was not there that night, nor had she been in for several months prior. The perp claimed in court papers that she has PTSD, neck and spinal injuries and is “Disabled” and had filed for Social Security Disability and was awaiting their decision. This perp during this period, this perp was fired from SAHM as a teen crisis intake caller for violating their confidentiality clause and was out in bars almost every night talking about the teens by name etc. The perp was also volunteering for Woman Space all the while out terrorizing those who came in contact with her. During this period the perp had jobs at Subway, Wal-Mart, and a Memory Care facility where one night "she" lost a client who had escaped her care. Police were called to locate the lost client and perp laughed about it on her FaceBook account. Perp them got another job at another Home Care Company, lost another client on "her" shift and police were called and she posted pictures of her riding in the back of the police car making light of the situation. Was she charged with neglect since this happened twice? No. Perp's neighbor’s called police a multitude of times and perp only gets warnings after yelling, threatening and chasing them down the street. The perp's husband brutally attacks a man outside their home while their two small grandchildren were present. A neighbor calls police and says Perp's husband is the aggressor. Police leave, then another call goes in to police that the perp's were menacing her with a gun for calling the police. Were they arrest? No. Was the gun confiscated? No. Husband has several assault charges in his past. Perp wife's own friend’s state she admitted being "off her medications". Perp's neighbor’s put their homes up for sale because there is no protection for anyone.

This problem is rampant in Oregon and other States as well. I feel for the Engels and other victims who were not protected by our present court system.  I am still alive, but who know for how long? My stalker/harasser has a long history of threatening, harassing and or assaulting her victims. The disabled victims that were brave enough to stand up against her and asked for protection from Victims Services, the local court system and police; were re-victimized by a system that allowed their tormentor to file retaliatory Orders of Protection against her victims. The victims had text messages, FaceBook Messages and online police incident reports to prove they were in danger, after being served the perpetrator then parroted her victim’s claims and said they were the aggressors. Prep has multitude of Billiard members spy for her on people, then she used a third party/fake FaceBook account to send a vicious volatile message, naming her spy’s and what they claim they saw. Perp nearly caused this couple their marriage and they moved out of the area. There were possibly up to 8 Judges who were involved in all three Order of Protection's but with an overloaded system they just push them through without asking for evidence. This person stole from one victim and also sent her threatening text messages, the victim reported it to police and they just gave the perp a warning. Perp punches a KJ in the head and blames it on an acquaintance. Perp's own husband calls police because the perp is "out of control and not cooperating". Perp punches a BCA member/friend in the face then flees after friend witnessed perp's odd behavior outside and tells other patrons. Perp grabs the breast's of another woman then goes berserk in calls and text messages, is told to stop in a text (as proof) and continues up to 5am. Report made to police and perp blames her victim. Perp verbally and physically assaults a disabled vet, he gets an Order of Protection just three months after the first disabled person filed for protection against same said perp; and perp retaliates and gets an Order of Protection on him parroting everything she did to him, saying he did it to her. After she had gone home, lied to her husband about what happened and had him and her brother go out and attempt to assault the disabled vet. This victim’s girlfriend tells the other victim that the night she was ruffied that she had heard that the same perp sexually assaulted her. Two weeks after not being able to confirm where she was transported to, was later told that the perp had been "tossing her around like a rag doll".

Judge Tichenor, apparently, is a male, not female Judge. He has a long history of "mistakes" and miscalculations. This is one is a small surprise to anyone who has been associated with the Yamhill County court scene. And, there will continue to be more "mistakes" which will be reviewed, by himself, and given the "I did all I could" or "wouldn't change a thing" rountine. It wouldn't have really mattered what this lady said, he made up his mind to "Deny" this petition, and unfortuately, he probably did so in a manner that belittled this lady who was dealing with a very large full plate emotionally already. She probably walked out of the court feeling no higher than 2 feet tall. Absolute Power corrupts--ABSOLUTELY! This is what it is and noone need defend the action--the Judge has already done so. The final consequences are buried. All that remains is for those left behind in the wake of this mess is to heal.

 

http://forejustice.org/wc/pamela_sue_reser_v2_i8.htm,

 

"Remarkably, in the face of having prosecuted and been responsible for the  imprisonment of an innocent Pamela Reser, the prosecutor [Tichneor] also said: 'It was one  of the stronger cases I prosecuted. She denied all along the facts and  circumstances.' If the prosecution of an innocent woman who unwaveringly  asserted her innocence was one of the prosecutor’s stronger cases, then there is  little doubt he has prosecuted numerous other innocent men and women who may  continue to languish in Oregon’s prison system."

First off, those restraining orders aren`t worth the paper they`re written on. Also, I hope that dumb but judge sleeps well at night now. there`s  A special kind of hell for people like him to live in.

Christ, leave the judge alone.  She clearly didn't articulate the danger.  She should have provided examples not just make blanket subjective statements.  If there was truly danger she never would have been over at his house.  This is a tragedy but lets keep the blame and responsibility for this horrible act where it belongs....with that turd husband.

This crooked judge should take womens complaints more seriously.  He probably went home and beat his wife.

 

He needs to be removed from the bench immediately.  We need a law on the books to sue the judges and bottom feeders when a death is the result of their failures to take appropriate action.

 

Hope Jane Velez-Mitchel and Nancy Grace gets word of this tragedy.  Action against women again. 

I am sure the judge is just saying/thinking this so he can sleep at night.

I live in Tigard Or, and read this in the Great Falls Tribune   Bad news travels fast.  What was wrong with giving this women a Temp order  and giving her time to gather her  evedence  There are many  women who are in the same place and worried this will happen to them   In Oregon we have lost to many families to  domestic violence, please stand up for these families and understand there is domestic violence in all walks of life, the upperclass, middle class and all the rest of us.  It could be happening next door to you and me.  Stand up against DOMESTIC VIOLENCE.

most protection orders are served on divorcing spouses so when the one spouse steals the stuff you can't go over and get it back without going to jail.

the criminal justice system is a reactive system not a preventative system. in this case the mother said it was ok for the dad to have visitation rights thereby saying he was not a threat. that is why the judge denied the protection order not that they do any good.

After reviewing some posts here, I have to add my ten cents.  If the mother was so afraid of the father being around the children, she could have had them stay with grandparents while whe went and met with Mr. wonderful.  I don't understand the concept of "I am afraid he will hurt them" but then she agrees to every other weekend visiits and takes them over to see him.  Something is missing here and we will never know what that is.... A very sad case indeed.

Judges are bound by laws.  If ayone could just stand before a judge and say, "he scares me, he shouldn't have custody.." divorcing spouses would do it all the time.  You MUST have a paper trail.

 

When I was going through my divorce, my ex decided he wanted sole custody of our kids, so, he tried to say I was doing drugs.  Instead of just taking his word for it, it was court ordered that a drug test be administered.  He had to take one, too.  It came back negative, just like I knew it would.  I realize that it doesn't compare to abuse, but, my point remains...you MUST show proof when you make an accusation.  In criminal trials, the burden of proof is set extremely high for a reason- to try and insure that innocent people don't go to jail. 

 

In her own words, she allowed her husband to spend time with the kids- alone.  Now, I don't know if she did that because he bullied her, but, the fact remains, she allowed it.  To a court, that doesn't show she's that scared of him. 

 

It's situations like this that prove people who are abused need to utilize the system.  You can't make someone do it.

Does anyone think that granting her custody would have changed anything?  Paper and good intentions will not stop bullets. She should have bought a compact 9mm and kept it with her at all times.

 

What is happening to the men in this country? Are we raising a bunch of wimps whose only answer to rejection is violence?   Cherish your family, love them, provide for them the best you can, be a leader, look at life as a lifelong project with ups and downs and everyday be grateful for the blessings you receive and the obstacles you overcome.  Real men don't kill their families.

She wrote in her filing for custody of their two children on May 29: "My husband threatened to steal them and not return them. He has threatened to hurt them. He yells at them and makes them feel nervous and upset."

 

How can he defend this? It was right there in what she wrote: He has threatened to hurt them!  Yet he chose to ignore that and focus on the nervousness part. Do you believe her NOW, Judge?

Hindsight is always better than 20/20...However I feel the state has failed............epically, again.

 

I know Sam that inherited his fathers land on ten mile creek and was shot in the back by the oregon state police as he was walking away, late at night on his property, for having a gun and going outside to see what the matter was, feels the same way............after all persons involved in both instances are DEAD..

She actually needed an attorney to protect her family, what a lame excuse.. This judge might be able to live with that lame answer, but I would be doing some soul searching here if I were the judge..   When a woman says she fears he may hurt her or the children he should have spent some time questioning this, not reviewing paperwork to see if she filled it out correctly... I'm shocked at this judge's lame excuse !

Hey Cal...is the "danger" established for you now...????

The judge may be an honorable person. But the face remains that they made a wrong decision. Everyone is dead. That proves that the decision was unwise. Im not saying that judges must be able to see the future or that there should be a penalty for making this bad decision. But you cant stand there and say it wes the right one when the body count proves otherwise.

 

I am torn. If it didn't require some sort of evidence to activate restraining orders, then callous, bitter spouses would be flinging lies and causing all kinds of mischief just to get the court to swing in their favor. There is a reason that evidence is required. I am not saying I like it or that I like this situation; it's heartbreaking and disgusting. My thoughts restraining order or not, people will do terrible, criminal things when they want. Don't blame the judge when the real problem here was the husband. The wife even stated that she didn't mind if the husband came to visit the children- hello? I just think the whole sitch is messed up and blaming the judge or calling him arrogant or saying he made a big mistake is off- he followed the law. The husband didn't follow the law and unfortunately he's not here for us to torture ourselves.

There are some real holes in this story.  In the first place, all Oregon county courts are now required to provide "family law facilitators", whose job is SUPPOSED to include helping pro se (without an attorney) parties fill out this sort of paperwork.  Unfortunately, most of them are pretty worthless, and seem more concerned with making sure you pay the five bucks for the document packet.  As far as the comment:that, "In Oregon the law requires a person to prove there's an 'immediate' danger", that's true as far as it goes - IF you're talking about an "Emergency Custody Order".  If however, you're talking about getting a FAPA (Family Abuse Prevention Act) order - which is what she SHOULD have filed for-  they pretty much hand those out like candy; the standard is much lower, only requiring a reasonable fear on the part of the applicant.  My question, were I the reporter, would have been: Why she was directed toward the Emergency Custody process, rather than the FAPA application?

 

(By the way, this new commenting system SUCKS you can't cut and paste, and the "spell check" doesn't even recognize words that are in the article being commented on. KATU must be hurting financially to settle for this mickeymouse setup!)

The burden of proof - requiring proven previous overt acts, when often all one has are threats, insinuations, and intuition - is entirely too high.

We need to get these arrogant idiot judges out of our justice system. A cops testimony is pure gold but an average citizens testimony is a fabrication. That is not justice.

Judge Tichenor obviously makes mistakes, like all of us, but his costs people more than simply money. His cost both life and liberty. Prosecutor Tichenor made similiar decisions by ignoring pleas of innocence--and basically making that an admission of guilt-- Please read: http://forejustice.org/wc/pamela_sue_reser_v2_i8.htm, esp.  note: "Remarkably, in the face of having prosecuted and been responsible for the imprisonment of an innocent Pamela Reser, the prosecutor [Tichneor] also said: 'It was one of the stronger cases I prosecuted. She denied all along the facts and circumstances.' If the prosecution of an innocent woman who unwaveringly asserted her innocence was one of the prosecutor’s stronger cases, then there is little doubt he has prosecuted numerous other innocent men and women who may continue to languish in Oregon’s prison system."

"The fact that the children are upset when one of the parents gets mad at them does not show that the children are danger," the judge said. "It may show that the children don't like it."

 

Seems like a nebulous comment to me.  I wonder if he had his best pontifical judge face on when he said it?

Essentially, a Judge is a lawyer who is in with the politicians.

The operation was a success.   The patient died.

I'm sure that anybody that ever had anything to do with this family is second-guessing themselves in what they've done/said/thought.  It's a horrible situation all the way around.  Ultimately, it was the husband that is responsible.  The judge went by the information he had at the time; the wife gave him the information she felt was relevant at the time; and the husband acted as he did regardless.  Not sure that even with the judges intervention that this tragedy would have been prevented.   Usually these guys are successful in acting out in the way this ended. 

If she had truly felt this was a possibility, I'm sure she wouldn't have gone there to begin with.  It's a sad situation that will live in the minds of a lot of people.

The fact that the Judge went back and tried to find "blame" or where he was wrong shows that he knows he made a mistake. She is DEAD! She can't tells us what really happened during that process, her pleas and cries went UNNOTICED by the court. Couldn't help but notice that Tichenor also was responsible for prosecuting an inncocent woman for abusing her children. She received a 118 year prison sentence. She was later determined to be factually innocent--actually (rarely done) admitted by the DA. She yelled that she was innocent over and over...but she was still prosecuted and received a "death" sentence. I suppose Tichenor will live with this as he does that case.

What was the judge supposed to do?

 

Divorce and custody cases can get extremely messy. I'm sure no one here would deny that there are parents out there who would lie just to stop their ex from seeing their children out of spite. That kind of thing does undoubtedly happen.

 

So is the judge just supposed to bar any man from seeing his kids based on what his ex-wife says? 

 

I really don't feel like the judge did anything wrong here. I don't think it would be right to stop fathers from seeing their children based solely on the word of the mother, considering that divorces do get messy and people do lie. I'm not saying Amy Engels did anything wrong here, either. 

This is just an incredibly unfortunate situation for all parties involved. I'm sure the judge wishes that things had gone differently, but I understand that we can't always just go on hearsay in cases like this. 

The judge followed the law. It's not his fault - he can't see into the future and everyone has 20/20 hindsight.

 

That said, I have an intimate history with Yamhill & Multnomah counties due to a family member. I can not relate exactly how frustrating Oregon law is regarding people who can potentially be a danger/threat to other people. Basically, in Oregon, unless a person has actually tried suicide or has attempted (or committed) a murder, there is really nothing anyone can do. That whole US Constitution bit is getting in the way of us being able to tattle on your neighbor (or in my case, family member) and get them in trouble for something they MAY do. The alternative is that the person in question commit themselves, voluntarily, to an Oregon mental health institution.

 

I know the frustration. There is very little that can be done within the law for someone who is mentally unstable, as Mr. Engels obviously was. Was he alcoholic? Hard drug abuser?

" Amy Engels did not have an attorney. She filled out the paperwork alone. So it is possible she might have left out key information that would have made a difference. And she might not have realized the inconsistency in her paperwork."

 

Don't blame the victim!  She did what she could with the resources she could afford and get!

Maybe people's fears, who have been in a situation and know it best, should be taken more seriously. Could have saved her and her kids. 

Judge Tichenor can claim all he wants to that he made the right decision, but he will live with that decision for the rest of his life.  In the back of his mind, he will always have those thoughts of "what if".