Fire truck slides on ice, crashes into guardrail near OHSU
PORTLAND, Ore. – A fire truck slid on a patch of ice and crashed into a guardrail on Sam Jackson Park Road Wednesday morning.
It happened at around 8:30 a.m. The fire truck was responding to a report of an injured bicyclist who slipped on a patch of ice, according to Portland Fire and Rescue spokesman Damon Simmons. The truck slid on the same patch of ice.
Simmons said leaves blocked a drain and caused water to remain on the road, where it froze.
"On the side of caution we usually chain up," he said. "But the road was absolutely dry except for the patch of ice. It was a cascade of unusual circumstances."
SW Sam Jackson Park Road was closed in both directions between Campus Drive and Terwilliger Boulevard. It will stay closed until the ice can be sanded, Simmons said.
The narrow road leads up a steep hill to Oregon Health and Science University (OHSU).
The bicyclist was walking around when crews arrived. He was checked out at OHSU as a precaution.
The truck was towed out and will soon be back in service.
To those complaining about sending out a fire truck for an injury call:
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This is very common since the fire dept can usually get there faster than the ambulance can. They can then assess the situation and see if the ambulance is needed (and call it off if it isn't). Once the ambulance arrives, they turn the case over to them and if they are no longer needed they'll leave. There are a lot more fire trucks and crews than ambulances, so by having some fire fighters trained in the same kinds of things as EMS workers, you can get much faster response times. And with some of these calls, minutes matter.
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Also, you may not realize that those response times have an affect on many of your insurance policies, so it is definitely in your best interest that they be able to keep response times low.
I think there should be no private ambulance service, Ambulance should be part of fire department, not private hands. A single call can run you $1500. That is way too much. Even if you refuse treatment, they will still try to dun you for $900 if someone else called them on you. whether you needed them or not. This is way out of line. As a poor man, I have to just accept that I will die, unable to afford care. No. I can't go to an emergency room. they will present a bill to you after they are done. What do you do then if you can't work and have a big bill with no savings and no way to pay it?
 @No_Conservitards Can't work, little if any income.....here's a link that may help you.  Sorry I don't have more time to research, but since you have internet access maybe this link will guide you to some help.  Good luck to you.
 @Sundowner  @No_Conservitards What link was this?
 @No_Conservitards I'm very sorry for not including the link.  This one might be a start....if I were you I'd definitely contact the county you live in.   http://www.oregon.gov/oha/healthplan/pages/tools_policy/stateplan.aspx#about
 @No_ConservitardsÂ
Fire departments are no different.
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San Francisco runs EMS transport from SFFD and they charge the same average rates as local private companies do.
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 @No_Conservitards Even with an EMS that is part of the fire dept, you still end up with large bills from an ambulance trip.
OUCH! that black ice will get all the time no matter who you are..
They need that size and length of a fire truck to assist a bicyclist? Glad no one got hurt.
There is absolutely no reason the city should be sending a $400,000 or $500,000 ladder truck on bicycle injury call. This is a case where a private ambulance company should be handling the call. These firefighters/EMTs are well trained but they have absolutely no restraint when it comes to spending and wasting taxpayer money. Almost all EMT calls are responded to by both the fire bureau and a private ambulance company. That is just ridiculous and cost all of us way more than it should. There are much more efficient solutions to delivering EMT services and the city should use them.Â
They probably took the only one they had available. Firefighters are always the first responders to the scene. There may not have been ambulances in the area. It's not like you're going to see a difference in your paycheck...don't worry.
 @I812 When did you have your EMT certification? When did you learn about how the EMS system works, its design, the process of triage for resources, etc.? How many times have you arrived on a scene and found that the dispatch information was mostly or completely wrong?
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The system is designed as it is for a reason. And yes, I spent 10 years in EMS. There's a reason why fire goes out first. And if it turns out the ambulance gets there faster and don't need additional help, they cancel fire. In this case, fire was closer and (would have) arrived faster. Exactly the way the system is designed.
@nonpartisan - I am not a EMT but have spent many, many years in different areas of gov't including aircraft ground dispatch, school bus dispatch, and emergency planning. I have yet to see one area that did not overreact on a consistent basis, and I would bet my money that fire and police dispatch is just as messed up when it comes to justifications used in determning what resources and equipment to send to a scene. That is not what appears happened this time. The thought process has always been and I see no reason for it to have changed: send as much as can be spared due to what you stated earlier - many times what is needed is not what is sent - so send in the army so to speak. That is all well and good - except when you start getting beat up about not utilizing resources wisely (re: wasting money) then you have a hard time justifying the decisions. If the person has nads they will state bluntly that too much uis better than none. The same people that will take you to task for this are the same ones that will bit** about unadequate response. I would not make the argument that whatever is sent is always the right decision - mistakes are made every day i am sure. K2 was just reporting the story - and then the blogosphere has to put in thier 2 cents.
 @Repoman I've not confirmed this, so if I'm incorrect I expect to be corrected.
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However, my understanding is that Washington County works under a different set of rules. Anyone arriving on scene stops the clock. So if it's a 6 minute response zone, if fire gets there in 5 minutes and transport unit takes 12 minutes, they consider it that the standard is met. That's not the way it works in Clackamas County, Multnomah County, or Clark County.
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All calls for service, if they were essentially requests for immediate service and not pre-scheduled transports (transports from home to hospice or nursing home, or transport from home to hospital for pre-scheduled admission) required using the county's set of triage cards. The triage cards dictated the response level. For Multnomah County, even if there was an RN on scene, an RN could not downgrade the response. Only an MD who specifically said he/she was taking responsibility for the patient until the ambulance arrived could do the downgrade. Not even another EMT or paramedic on scene could downgrade, with certain very limited exceptions.
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When I was dispatching ambulances, Multnomah County maximum level during the daytime was typically around 16 or so. Clackamas County was around 9. I don't know numbers for Washington County.
 @Repoman Naw, I think they just really really like playing with those big hoses.
 @wvboyÂ
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More than half the area of both Washington and Clackamas counties are covered by volunteer firefighters.
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It takes 4-6 people to man a truck. We will page out 20. We often don't get enough to operate an apparatus. Usually one of the paid companies from an outside agency will end up getting there first.
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UNLESS it's a fire. Then we page 20 people and 50 show up.
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LOL
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Anything to squirt water on a fire.
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To all those who gripe about this. Come live in rural Clatsop/Columbia county where they have to beg off or delay emer calls at times because they do not have enough personel to go on a call in a timely manner. Not thier fault - its the same taxpayer who wants to put most of the work on volunteers. Those volunteers are crawling out of the woodwork ya know. I don't care if the EMT shows up in a tank - they are there at least. I would bet the driver of that ladder truck hated the fact he had to drive in what he most likely knew was icy conditions - but he did what he was asked to do - Try.
 @nonpartisan  @wvboyÂ
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"Ambulance only" calls are a thing of the past. Any call that comes in even for transport only will HAVE to be triaged. It is now policy in Washington and Clackamas countries (much to Metro Westâs despair). I don't know about LOCOM, CRESA or BOEC.
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And to my experience (and actually at this point it is what I am tasked with) the ONLY reason why fire can respond quicker is number of available units.
AMR and Metro West may have 12 units out at some points of the day. There are more firefighters waiting for a call in rural Clackamas and Washington Counties. Fire is also âat the readyâ, how many ambulance crews do you think are sitting waiting for a call? Since I have been working on ambulance response times, I have learned that Metro West may have ZERO available units and upwards of 5 calls waiting. Even code calls sometimes wait for transport. I have had TVF&R fire units call back to the house, man a transport and get to scene before Metro West does who claims to be âin routeâ.
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And for some reason they have never been fined.
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So fire has the advantage and itâs more than in just tools.
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 @wvboy  @nonpartisan On emergent calls, in Portland, fire has a 4 minute response time (from dispatch to arrival) and ambulance has an 8 minute response time (from dispatch to arrival). The theory is that, in general, fire is going to be closer than the nearest ambulance. In many cases, this is true. Not always, but many.
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Dispatch information is notoriously inaccurate. People try to make things sound worse than they are ("OMG! He's down! He's not answering! I don't know if he's breathing! Just send someone!" when the person is awake and talking) or they try to make things sound not as serious ("He's just having a little chest pain -- we've seen this before, we're just calling as a precaution, you don't need to send them lights and siren" and find the person in cardiac arrest.). Or things change en route -- the person who is unconscious may gain consciousness again and be up and around by the time EMS arrives. You never know for sure, so you have to send a response that can cover the potentials of the situation.
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There are triage systems that have a more tiered response than Portland. For better or worse, it hasn't adopted such a system. WashCo and ClarkCo have, but they still tweak the response levels. Regardless, there are some calls in Portland that are fire-to-check or ambulance-only. These are the most benign of the benign -- the absolute least likely to be a life-threatening emergency -- and yet sometimes (not often) they still get upgraded.
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One can argue about whether the type of apparatus was appropriate; I never handled fire dispatch, although in my duties I worked with them. So I don't know what their exact criteria were and whether this truck was appropriate. Nevertheless, I have no doubts that sending fire as the first response was appropriate for the call. They just ended up in an unfortunate situation.
 @I812 Personally I would estimate that truck would be somewhere in the $900,000 - $1,100,000 range.  A regular pumper you see driving down the road is $400,000 to $600,000 range.Sending out an FD crew to EMS runs is quite normal in a city that has a paid fire department.Having worked for both private and gov't ambulance services, I can tell you that it is nice having the FD respond.  Typically within 30 seconds I can tell whether I will need their help.  If I don't, I release them.Many services also with rotate who goes on the call.  Usually the crews that work on the ladder company only work on the ladder company, and the same goes for the engine company.  In many places throughout the country, the engine will handle a call, then the rescue/ladder/hazmat/whatever.  That way the same unit isn't doing all the calls while the others aren't.One last big reason to have the fire department respond when they don't do transports (i.e. have their own ambulances) is because it LOOKS GOOD on paper.  You can say "we responded to 120,000 calls for service last year" as 80% of them are EMS runs.  It's an attempt to justify a high budget/operating costs.Â
 @I812 And those solutions are?  How does Fire waste money by responding to injury accidents?  How are they showing no restraint by wasting and spending taxpayer money by responding to injury accidents?  How does a private ambulance company do it cheaper or better than fire?  Please....explain this to us all.
 @Suffer247 @I812 Um, I fail to see how the fire department spend and waste tax payer dollars. If the first responders are already on shift, they are being paid whether or not they are using the fire truck, or if the fire truck is at the fire house. I'd rather see fire departments working, rather than sitting around the fire house.
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 @Dr. Rawdog Troll so hard.
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 @Dr. Rawdog And it continues...
 @Dr. Rawdog Alcohol?  Are you serious?
 @Suffer247  @Dr. Rawdog The Dr. watched too much "Rescue Me" and must think all firefighters are burned-out drunks...
Portland does have 4 rescue type vehicles, each manned by 2 personnel. Â They are used for low priority calls and are place strategically around the city. Â An injured bicyclist is NOT a low priority call. Â There is possibility of spinal injury and this requires quick action by 4 firefighter EMT/medics to determine. Â There is traffic control to think about, patient care, possible extrication (they are up on the hill on this one)...which requires more than 2 personnel to complete. Â Unfortunately, it is not easy to determine high and low priority calls through a telephone call so they err on the side of prudence....get the necessary resources rolling and slow/cancel resources as needed. Â What may have been a simple bike accident could have easily been something more....and you just don't know until you get on scene.
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Too many of you think that the cheapest way is the only way. Â Think about that the next time you or your family needs 911 assistance. Â Do you want the cheapest, slowest response? Â Send one guy in a city owned Prius to see if it's really a priority, then ask for additional help upon arrival? Â Not efficient and not an effective way to provide emergency service to those who need it.
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Think about it.
 @Suffer247Â
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I would think a "car" (and these are more like SUVs like TVF&R right?) would be faster than a ladder truck. There are street calming devices on the hill headed up in that direction and I think any rig would have to slow WAY down to traverse those.
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And police cars are used to control traffic all the time. I am sure an SUV could do the same. They all have lights on them.
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But with only 4 cars in all of PF&R I would guess one is a LONG way away. And they only carry 2 people.
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As a taxpayer and as a citizen who uses these services (well not yet, but i am sure I will one day), I really hope they expand the "car" thing to every station. Make it first due on low priority calls where extraction equipment and firefighting won't be needed (how many people need to be extracted from a bike and how often does a bike catch fire?).
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Save the expensive rigs with the poor mileage high maintenance costs (and repair costs) for when they are needed.
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 @Repoman It would take too long to explain why this is a bad idea.  But it's a bad idea. Sorry.
 @Repoman Ok, here goes.  There are 2 scenarios that I could see that would be possible with cars at every station. Â
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1.) 1 car staffed with 1-2 permanent personnel at each station. Â 30 stations means 30 new vehicles and 30-60 additional personnel. Â Say $85K per employee (payroll/bene's) = $2.55 - $5.10M in additional payroll....plus another $1.0 - 1.5M in new vehicles and fuel/maintenance. Â City is currently seeking a 6-10% reduction from each of the bureaus. Â This option could cost the city an additional $3.5 - $7M a year. Â Probably not feasible given the current budget woes.
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2.)  Staff the cars with current station personnel.  You'd still have the cost to buy/fuel/maintain 30 new vehicles.  But the problem now is if you send 1 or 2 personnel out on a low priority call, what happens when a high priority call (code, structure fire, TA, etc.) comes in at the station that requires all 4 personnel to respond?  Portland keeps 4 FF's on every rig to ensure that when the first engine arrives at a fire, 2 personnel can go interior immediately with 2 personnel outside for FF rescue.  I can assure you that this is vital if people are trapped inside.  OSHA requires 2-in, 2-out.  If you are the 1st arriving engine at a fire and you don't have 4 on board, and there is an imminent rescue, crews cannot make entry; they must wait until the next engine arrives.  This is why Portland  fights aggressively to keep 4 personnel on every fire engine/truck.  Splitting a crew up can have disastrous consequences.
 @Suffer247Â
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I will ask the next chief who walks through my work the same question and see what he says. Or maybe when I'm on my next road repair I will ask one of the guys then. Or maybe I will just ask one of our dispatchers.
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It seems on the surface like a good idea.
 @Suffer247 Understood, but why send the big ol' ladder truck? The chances of a multi-story structure fire were very, very remote.
 @Bill Walters Probably because the engine was out another call.  Size of the rig doesn't matter....the tools and the training that are on it does.  Ladder trucks have many, many uses...only one of which is responding to house fires.
Blame Sammy on that one. Lack of funds to clear the sewer system, because he used the money to create green boxes for the bike lanes, which the bicyclist probably wasn't able to use, as it was not downtown Portland.Â
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(*sarcasm alert...except for Sam and his obnoxious idea of misappropriating funds)
Oh yes, it's the mayors fault that leaves blocked a storm drain.Â
 @pdxd I happened to be driving by as he was unloading big black yard debris bags out the back of his truck...He had this cRaZy look in his eyes...
Sending a truck on calls like this is a total waste of taxpayer money. Even sending an engine is a waste of money.
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When are our political leaders going to put a stop to this waste of taxpayer money? Probably never.
 @RalphCramden I thought you WANTED taxpayer money spent.  "I am working to use all the government resources I can so that they run out of money quicker". <---Your quote, not mine.  Make up your mind Ralph.
 @RalphCramden Please explain, the fire fighters are already on duty, already being paid, it's more of a waste not having them do anything rather than responding to calls.
 @RalphCramden How is sending a fire truck or engine to an injured resident a waste of taxpayer money?  Explain.
 @Suffer247Â
Running those trucks is expensive. Running them when not needed will reduce the life of the vehicle.
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Plus why do firefighters need to go to medical calls anyhow? Most of the time they just stand around and look important.
 @RalphCramden  @pdxdÂ
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Ok then where's you bridge?
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 @pdxdÂ
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OH don't worry pdxd, I am not ECLUDING anyone.
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I just wanted to make sure Suffer knew soemthing of Ralf.
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 @pdxd  @RepomanÂ
One correction. I am a troll....8-}
 @Suffer247Â
I have all kinds of retirement income.
 @Suffer247Â
I can assure you that over 80% of medical calls do not need the services of a paramedic, EMT or anyone else for that matter. They are nothing more than a ride to the hospital.
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A total waste of taxpayer dollars to send the fire department on medical calls. Even worse is having paramedics on the fire department which costs the taxpayers another 11% in salary.
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The statistics back me up.
 @Repoman I'm not a fan of PERS myself, I think the public employees should utilize 401K's as much of the private sector now utilizes. I wouldn't call him a troll, maybe a funny old grumpy man, but not a troll.
 @RalphCramden  Doing what?  If you have 30 years in, that probably means you're retired?  Do you earn a pension? Â
 @RalphCramden You obviously have a chip on your shoulder.  I'm  usually too busy at medical calls doing patient care to stand around.  Fire generally arrives first on nearly 7 out of  every 10 medical calls.  I can assure you, there is no standing around.
 @Suffer247Â
You are probably right. My 30 years in emergency services means nothing.
 @Suffer247  @RalphCramdenÂ
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Ralf isn't a troll, but he does hail from the Paul Ryan, Ron Paul school of lower taxes are ALWAYS better.
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He does not like unions either. And he does not like PERS. Indeed I would argue that Ralph's position is that public employees should not get any benefits because that is paid by taxpayers.
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I generally disagree with him, but I cannot say he is a troll.
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 @RalphCramden I get it now.  You're the resident troll here.  You run your mouth, have no idea what you're talking about and no one takes you seriously.  Good to know.