Riders unhappy with TriMet's solution when fare machines broken
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PORTLAND, Ore. – More MAX riders tell KATU News they're being unfairly ticketed because it's impossible to buy a ticket at some stops.
But ticket officers have no sympathy.
Causing all the fuss is the ticket machines that sometimes don't work. So folks get on the trains anyway thinking they have a good reason for having no ticket.
It happened to Sean Derry and his father on Saturday night on the way to the Timbers game. He says there were no working ticket machines at the Millikan MAX stop. So not knowing what to do, they got on anyway.
When they got off the MAX at Jeld-Wen Field, the TriMet ticket officers on the platform would not listen and wrote them both $175 tickets.
"So we went up there, explained our situation, and they pulled out the ticket books and wrote my Dad and I (tickets)," Derry said.
Derry says for TriMet passengers, there's a better way to deal with the problem.
"The spirit of the law kind of says, 'Hey, as an officer I understand why you did that. Here we have the ticket booth right here. You need to pay for a ticket. We're not going to write you a ticket but understand, next time, you need to stop at each one of those stations.'"
Those stations? On its website TriMet tells riders if there are no working ticket machines, they need to stop at each MAX station on their route until they find a working machine and purchase their ticket.
Derry argues that TriMet should put a notice on the machine's electronic screens that passengers need to go to the next stop and buy a ticket. (Currently, what is displayed is: "Sorry, this machine is temporarily out of service.")
"Just because if it's not there, people aren't going to do it, and then you're getting tickets for something, that just doesn't seem right," he said.
KATU did find a machine at Northeast 60th that had been out-of-order for 19 hours (and counting) even though maintenance had been notified, according to TriMet's Twitter feed.
It was bad news for commuter Amy Fisher who couldn't pay. She wasn't willing to get off at every MAX stop until she could buy a ticket.
"And get fired from work because I'm late every day? I don't think so," she said.
So she rode the MAX to work anyway with no ticket.
She said it wasn't the first time a faulty machine meant she had to risk getting a ticket.
According to TriMet, it has crews working two shifts a day to care for machines. In a statement TriMet said the ticket machines are reliable 92 percent of the time and it is currently working to replace 120 of the oldest ticket machines in service. Once it does, every ticket machine will be five years old or newer.
We learned about this story through a news tip. If there's news in your neighborhood, email us at newstips@katu.com.
When you depend on mass transit you can depend on getting punked.
TRI-MET is like the Honey badger,it doesnt care
TriMet needs to take responsibility to have their machines working. There was a period of time a few months back that none of the validators were working at the Fairgrounds. I reported it several times over several weeks and it took a very long time for them to work on the machines which still have issues.
What the report DOESN'T tell you is that if fare inspectors will ticket you if you're seen getting off of a train at their stop, regardless of whether you are there to buy a ticket or not.Â
And TWO whole shifts a day? And how many crews? Maybe Tri-Met should have used the money they spent giving their execs secret raises and hiring new fare gestapo to get more crews available to do maintenance/repair on the machines 24/7, instead of this 2 shifts a day BS.
I got nailed one night riding from downtown to the airport. I had a Zone 1-2 pass and was traveling into Zone 3. I told the inspector the fare machine downtown had no upgrade option available. She said I should have bought a short-hopper (1-zone) ticket (what good would that have done me if I'd bought it downtown and was riding into zone 3?) OR walked over to a bus (with all my luggage, no less) and bought a 30-cent upgrade. If she'd cited me I would have fought it tooth and nail.
The Japanese don't have these kinds of troubles. Buy Japanese vending machines. They don't have a culture where illegal mooching is tolerated either.
Everyone likes a free ride. How about you fence in all the max stops, have to pay admission (fare) to get past the fence. Then many of these rent a cops can go away. I ride max to and from work 5 times a week and see daily the criminal element each and every day getting a free ride on the system. I say secure the platforms and leave the thugs their feet to get around.
Go on strike.........don't ride it for a day.
TriMet has a responsibility to its rides in that, if it REQUIRES a ticket, it must provide riders with an opportunity to purchase a ticket where they get on the train, or provide ticket machines on each train or someone to provide them with a pass or temporary fare WHERE THEY BOARD THE TRAIN if the machine is unavailable for any reason.
TriMet must not, under any circumstances, penalize the public for its [TriMet's] lack of foresight and ineptitude in keeping its ticketing machines functioning properly.
Their purpose is to provide transportation services to the general public. If they are unable to do so, then they must provide the public with a safe and reasonable replacement until their services have been restored.
Requiring passengers to deboard at each station in search of a working ticketing machine is an unreasonable request.
We need to limit trimets power over us...They waste money on projects no one wants. Â They dont care what the taxpayer wants.
How about a cell phone app?
@bob what about people like me who dont and never will have a cell phone? the ticket machines need to work period!
I do not ride public transportation often, but recently my vehicle was in the shop and I needed to ride the Max from Cleveland Station in Gresham to PDX and the ticket machine was broken. Upon trying to use both machines at the stop, they both were unavailable and according to a veteran rider, had been for 3 days. When I asked a TriMet worker at the stop about the situation he said that you just need to get on and get back off at the next stop and get a ticket. Or just ride, and hope you don't get stopped. There are only seconds to do so, unless you ride to Gateway where there is a longer wait between trains. I asked for the person's ID number with TriMet in case I was stopped by a person checking for tickets. This worked for me but sure a hassle for something that seems to be happening more and more. '
Personally, this story saying that they are working 92% of the time seems a bit stretched. As we all know, any set of data can show a number you want with a small teak. Almost like saying 60% of the time it works 100% of the time.
Littlestoff
Trimet has been using/reusing pretty much the same number 90-some percent, with the same excuses & same 'go to another machine' BS.Â
Apparently things have not improved one bit. Time to cut off funding for Trimet or sell them to private enterprise that can actually make the ticket machines work reliably.Â
K2 even has an article from 2009: http://www.katu.com/news/41171112.html
@axpman When I was in Germany, I never once encountered a ticket machine for their public transportation systems that was out of order. For the Germans, it's a matter of pride that things work and work well.Â
Here it seems more of a "when I get around to it" attitude where "so-so" quality is good enough.
I'd be embarrassed to work for TriMet with something like this taking place regularly.
@Mikey@axpman
You're talking about the culture of "work around".Â
Because it is a major institution and I am going to bag on it, I will be vague about who I am talking about.Â
I worked at a major medical university for a few years and encountered the "work around stays around" issue repeatedly. What would happen is either a need would rise (could we have a computer here?) or an issue would come up (physician paging isnât working again) and we would patch the system/solution together to get operations back up with the intention of getting money and fixing it correctly. Well the fix never came and the work around was "good enough" to solve the issue.Â
Now this is not from the tech/telecom/networking line crew, but management. Since upper management was two or three levels removed from the person actually doing the work, they had no apparent investment in the work and thus decided that if it ain't "broke" don't spend money to "fix" it.Â
92 percent is not particularly reliable for a computer system. It is actually pretty horrible, in my opinion.Â
@ObviousZebraÂ
Yeah I made that observation too.Â
Fi you think of it this way, at that rate, 1 out of about 11 uses of your computer would not be what you want.Â
Power it up the 12th time, nope. Do that 12th Google Search, broken. 95% is industry standard for MINIMUM failure in many industries and 99.9+% is the standard in mine.Â
Trimet is horrible this way. They are unjustly trying to generate fee revenue off people fully knowing they have faulty equipment. I guess this is one way to pay for the large salary raises the management team received this year.Â
Here's what confuses me. Â If someone reports to you as a fare inspector that a machine is down, you ought to have the technology to be able to check that remotely. Â Or call in to Dispatch. Â At that point, after you have confirmed that the machine at that location is indeed down, you offer the riders the chance to pay you the fare, or get ticketed.
@Kphrog Most of the time its not fare inspectors, but the cops that go around writing the tickets.
Trimet has such an ancient infrastructure. Why you can't buy tickets via a mobile device, or use NFC-enabled devices to pay for fares on the go is beyond me. If TriMet wants to hand out more tickets for no-fare, they need to at least do something to come into the 21st century in terms of selling fares. They waste so much time trying to make machines that will continually break down, work, instead of spending money adopting newer, more flexible forms of payment and making easier for commuters to purchase those fares.
So let's do some math.Â
Let's assume that indeed there are working ticket machines 92% of the time. I am betting that math is all machines, all operating hours.Â
So let's say we have only one machine at each stop. There are 87 max stations. That means that at any one time 81 (80.04) are working thus 6-7 machines are NOT working at any one time.Â
Thus you could end up traveling from Gateway, all the way to the Rose Quarter, stopping at every single stop AND STILL not find a working machine on that platform. 5 minutes between (during the rush) and you would spend 35 minutes+ plus travel time (30 minutes) or an hour searching and still get a ticket of $175. During non peak times there is 15 minutes between trains. You could spend three hours looking for a station that had a working machine.Â
But what if TriMet is lying about 92%? At just 90% that means 2 more failed machines and that means you could go from Gateway into downtown before you found a machine.
Just an FYI in most industries anything less than 95% uptime is considered poor and for a 24/7 system 99.9+% is industry standard.Â
@Repoman the flaw in your argument is there is a minimum of two (sometimes 3-4) machines at every stop.
@RamsesthegreatÂ
Ok let's assume 3 (exactly) machines at each stop.Â
If TriMet were being honest at a 92% functioning rate then of the now 261 machines, 254 (253.17) would be functional. That means only 7 machines would not be working at any one time.Â
Thus there should be a 0.012% chance that all three machines on the platform would be non-functional. And if that were the case, then it would be guaranteed that at the previous OR next stop there would be at least one machine that did work.Â
Is that the experience others have seen? From the description there is more than a 10% that no machine functions on any one particular platform thus implying that far more than 8% are non-functional at any one time.Â
With a 1% chance that all machines are non-functional (the numbers get exponentially less likely with 4 machines at â92%â), then 33 (32.625) would have to be down at any one time or at most about 87.4% of them are working.
Now if you argue those are all on the same line, you have a pretty good chance of getting more than one platform in a row without ANY functional machine. Â
If you up that to the observed 10% then at most about 65.5% are functional. Â
 In all cases TriMet is not being honest about soemthing. They certainly aren't putting money where they need it most, getting money.Â
@Repoman They're not being honest about that number. They've been using the same numbers since at least 2009. Nothing with Trimet is improving, except for the revenue the tickets bring in, which is much more than ticket sales.
I consider myself lucky.  I don't have to take TRI-MET.   everything is with in walking distance. and that is how i like it.  Â
For all those who mention they think they should ride for free if the ticket machine is broken. You are basically using a paid service, without paying, which is considered theft of services. If you were wanting to attend a basketball or football game, and you went up to pay for attending the game, and ticket machines were down, do you think they would simply allow you in without evidence of you paying for a ticket? Don't think so. Trimet's ticket machines are antiquated. However, I've found them easier to use than some of the systems I've used on the east coast where you must figure out which ticket you have to pay for depending on the time of day (almost went crazy in Washington DC calculating which Metro tickets to buy). I still stand by the fact that if you want to ensure that you have a ticket to ride the MAX, then you best buy the ticket in advance.
@pdxd Your comparison to a sporting event doesn't make much sense. You are comparing something that is a necessity (transportation) to a luxury (entertainment). As well, I can guarantee that if automated ticketing was down at an arena they would have a back-up plan in place to make sure they could sell all of the available tickets, after all, that is their business.Â
The problem with TriMet is they are putting the onus on the customer (report broken machines, go out of your way to find a working machine) which is bad business. If they didn't have a monopoly on public transportation they would have no customers due to poor customer service. How would you feel if you were in a restaurant that advertized accepting credit cards but they tell you, after your meal, they can only take cash tonight? Granted, most rational people would understand that things like this happen on occasion, but if it happened regularly (almost 10% of the time) would you continue to go there?
@PhillyBuster Okay, since you didn't like my original comparison how about this? What if you decide to not renew your car registration because the line at the DMV is too long or you forgot your wallet? Do you think that the police would ignore your responsibility to have paid for that registration fee just because you felt inconvenienced? I don't think they would.
Don't disregard the fact that the MAX is paid for thru taxes. Ticket sales only subsidize the light rail.
@pdxdÂ
Or Japan.Â
You can buy ANY ticket to get on a train, but if you purchased the wrong one (wrong stop wron line ect). you won't be able to GET OFF the platform until you buy the correct one.Â
Everyone knows you need to get off at the station before Jeld-Wen on match day, they don't have guards there. Rookies.
You mean you have to pay to ride that thing?
Get off at every stop until you find one that works. RIGHT!! That is the stupidest thing ever. It is a cost of doing business if they can't keep their crappy machines operational.
Put a ticket machine on each transport.
TRI-MET is refusing to be dependable or responsible for bad service and abusing the victims of their bad service like criminals.Â
People depend upon public transportation for a variety of reasons and it is fundamentally wrong for tri-met to abuse that trust by allowing equipment failure to harm riders.
In summary: TRI-MET needs to collect its fecal matter into a single tidy bag.
I have traveled around the world and Portland is the only city that tolerates the level of incompetence by its public transportation utility workers that is daily demonstrated by TRI-MET.Â
I use a MAX station in Beaverton about 4 days a week, and quite often, there's 1 of the machines that won't print out a ticket, always so frustrating if a train is almost there. Eventually, I think I'll just start buying the book of tickets at the grocery store and then validating the ticket at the station.
TriMet doesn't care about anything except $.
@Phx2Pdx Tri-Met employees care about their pensions and cushy jobs.
@Agness P Weatherby go drive a 40 ft bus carrying passengers, dealing with the public harassing you, and the stress of managing your route, timeliness, and getting in and out of traffic on busy roads for 10-12 hours per day and then come back and you can talk about it being a "cushy" job. The only ones at trimet that have a truly cushy job are the management, just like any other business.
@Agness P Weatherby really? What about the driver punched just this week? Or the driver stabbed last year? Just because you don't personally witness it doesn't mean it doesn't occur.
@Ramsesthegreat
I have never seen a bus driver harassed in Portland but I have seen them acting badly to the public on many occasions. I've also encountered some really cool drivers. Â
up until 1969 all bus service was provided by a privately owned company called Rose city transit. At $.25 per ride with no governmental subsidies
Whether or not you ever ride a TriMet bus or train you pay about $300 per house in taxes to TriMet and in the additional roughly $300 out of your payroll deductions. So without ever touching a train or bus as head of household you give TriMet $600 a year. In addition to that every building permit starts out with a $5000 fee that goes to TriMet. That increases the value of every house in the Portland Metro area by $5000. not only does that increase your home's tax burden but if you didn't pay cash for your house your financing that $5000 over 30 years.Â
It's undisputed that light rail is the most expensive way to transport the public so why do we have light rail?
Why do we not go back to 1969 and have those who ride the bus or train pay all of the expenses of that service?
Every motor vehicle driver knows of the congestion and the poor condition of our roads and yet drivers pay virtually all of the expense of transportation public and private. No new roads have been built since the 205 freeway was completed and yet look at the bicycle paths, light rail and accommodations for buses/bicycles that have been created that slow traffic.
All that's really been accomplished by TriMet is a giant money grab, explosion of government bureaucracy and the reduction of livability of our city/state.Â
We the people should have an initiative petition that separates public transit from the government and returns it to private enterprise and that would drastically reduce the cost and the waste. Â You remember the articulated buses? what happened to them and why were we not made aware of who made that mistake and how they lost their job for it?
Actually, I think that the use of buses and lightrail has eased the flow of traffic. If the amount of people on a bus or train were in individual cars, I think the roads would be a lot worse. At a certain point in time, the automobile as we know it will be obsolete due to greatly reduced fossil fuel resources, I think investing some money into future transportation options is a good use of resources.Â
@pdxd  Automobiles obsolete? What are you high on? It will never happen.
@wondering Are you high? I said "the automobile as we know it", eventually the combustion engine will not be around forever, it will be eventually be replaced. Crude oil that is currently used for transportation, will eventually be depleted, maybe not in our lifetimes, but someday.
If they can accept only being able to collect 92% of the time then we should only be expected to pay 92% of the time.
Two years ago when my teenage sons left the Rose Garden to come home but were unable to purchase tickets from two different stops.  Being honest kids as they were, they called me to pick them up because they felt "stranded" by TriMet and did not wish to get a ticket.
My complaint to Trimet went unanswered. They don't care.
Odd, I have received responses from TriMet when I've contacted them about their buses nearly hitting me while I cross a crosswalk, and the bus tries to rush through a yellow or red light.
I like how their buses always pull into a lane at the last second when traffic is heavy.
@pdxd but they do not have the right to pull out in front of other drivers without looking expecting everyone to slam of their brakes because they have the stupid light lit up.
@Ramsesthegreat @Oregon7812 yes that is true, but I have been directly next to the bus, and the lights are not flashing their yield light and the driver is attempting to pass me, I love cutting them off like they cut everyone off.
@Torino_v2 based on the current law, if a bus has it's left signal on, and the yield triangle is lit up, it means that they have the right of way
Pretty sure the intent of that law is to allow them to pull out into traffic from a stopped position where they pick up and drop off passengers - not to cut in front of traffic at the last second to save a few minutes on their journey.
@Ramsesthegreat So, the solution for the bus driver is to risk a collision?
@Oregon7812 perhaps that's due to people not following the law that states that a bus with its turn signal on to enter traffic MUST be yielded too.