Shooting rampage at Clackamas mall leaves 3 dead, including shooter
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CLACKAMAS, Ore. – A gunman opened fire Tuesday in a busy Clackamas shopping center, leaving the shooter and two others dead and forcing the mall's Santa Claus and hundreds of Christmas shoppers and employees to flee or hide among store displays.
The shooting happened around 3:30 p.m. at the Clackamas Town Center. The Clackamas County Sheriff's Office immediately received a flurry of 9-1-1 calls and dispatched deputies to the scene where they divided up into small teams to track down the shooter.
The gunman shot and killed two people and critically injured a third person before turning the gun on himself, Clackamas County Sheriff's Office spokesman Lt. James Rhodes told reporters outside the mall. He added that no deputies fired their weapons during the incident.
At a news conference later in the evening, Clackamas County Sheriff Craig Roberts said responding officers handled the situation admirably.
"I'm really proud of all the different agencies that came together to really step up and put their lives on the line," he said, adding that there were law enforcement officers at the mall minutes after the first reports of shots. Four SWAT teams were quickly deployed, Roberts said, to "basically hunt down this guy in the mall."
At the height of the terror, over 100 officers from nearly every government agency - from the city to the federal levels - responded. Deputies searched the mall room by room looking for anyone who might be injured or hiding. By 6:30 p.m. they had searched almost the entire building. "We will search this mall until we are certain it is secure and everyone has been removed," Rhodes said at the time.
At this point, investigators have not yet released any details about the suspect or two victims who were killed. All they have said is that the shooter was an adult male.
The victim who survived is Kristina Shevchenko and she is in "serious" condition, according to Oregon Health & Science University, where she is being treated. Her age was not specified.
Shevchenko was hit several times by gunfire and arrived at the hospital between 5:15 p.m. and 5:30 p.m., roughly two hours after the shooting began. Doctors did not say exactly how many gunshot wounds she suffered or where those wounds are located.
"We have a young lady in the hospital fighting for her life right now," Roberts said on Tuesday.
Wednesday morning, a note regarding the shooting was posted on the Clackamas Town Center's Facebook page:
Our thoughts and prayers are with everyone who was in the mall at the time of this unfortunate incident. We are grateful to have the stellar support of all the law enforcement agencies and rescue personnel in the area, who immediately took action and continue to ensure the safety of everyone remaining at the property. The mall will remain closed tomorrow, Wednesday, December 12.
Governor Kitzhaber ordered flags at public institutions to be immediately lowered to half staff on Wednesday in honor of the shooting victims. “My thoughts and prayers are with the victims, their families and their friends during this very difficult time,” Governor Kitzhaber said in an email. “I would also like to thank the first responders and the many citizens who helped protect those at risk.”
The Clackamas County Sheriff's Office is asking any witnesses or anyone with information about the shooting to call them at 503-723-4949 or go to this web page to submit a tip.
WITNESSES DESCRIBE THE SCENE
Holly Bautista
Holly Bautista, 28, said she was shopping at Macy's for a Christmas dress for her daughter when she heard pops that sounded like firecrackers.
"I heard people running and screaming and saying 'Get out, there's somebody shooting," she said.
Bautista said hundreds of shoppers and mall employees started running, and she and dozens of other people were trying to escape through a department store exit.
Anna Canzano
KATU Reporter Anna Canzano said her husband, Oregonian sports columnist John Canzano, was pulling up to the mall when the shooting happened. He said people reported hearing around 60 shots from the food court.
Kris Kringle
A man who has played Santa at the mall for 11 years said he heard more than a dozen shots that were clearly from a semi-automatic weapon.
"I hit the floor inside the set and fortunately there weren't too many kids or people in the set area," said the man, who would only give his name as 'Kris Kringle.'
David Moran
Austin Patty
Austin Patty, 20, who works at Macy's, said he saw a man in a white mask carrying a rifle and wearing a vest. He said he heard the gunman say "I am the shooter," as if announcing himself.
Police later clarified the suspect was not wearing a bulletproof vest.
A series of rapid-fire shots in short succession followed as Christmas music played. Patty said he ducked to the ground and then ran.
Amber Tate
Amber Tate said she was coming out of Macy’s and standing by her car when she spotted a gunman who looked like a teenager.
Tate, who didn't hear any shots fired, said at first she thought the gunman was wearing a paintball vest.
"But then I saw all these people running out screaming and people grabbing their kids and crying and trying to get into their cars as fast as they could," she said.
Nadia Teleguz
Nadia Teleguz, who was in the mall at the time of the shooting, said a family friend was shot by the gunman.
"My friend's sister got shot," Teleguz said. "She's on her way to OHSU. They're saying she got shot in her side and so it's not life-threatening, so she'll be OK."
As of Tuesday evening, the woman was listed in stable condition at the hospital.
Marin Torres, Jr.
Evan Walters
An employee at a store in the mall, Evan Walters, was locked inside a store with about 10 others just a few feet away from where the shooting happened. Walters said at least 20 shots were fired.
"It was kind of surreal because we hear pops and loud noises all the time because we're right here by the food court, but it's never been anything like that,” he said. “It was very definite gun shots. I think most all of us knew it was gunshots. There really was no rhyme or reason to them. There were many in a row."
Walters said he saw two people who had been shot and killed. He and other store employees brought out sheets from the store to place over the victims.
"Everyone's just trying to stick together and be as calm as possible for people ... I don't know what else to say,” Walters said. “It's just kind of scary. We're just trying to be as strong as we can and hopefully we'll be out of this as soon as possible."
Shaun Wik
Shaun Wik, 20, from Fairview, said he was Christmas shopping with his girlfriend and opened a fortune cookie at the food court. Inside was written: "Live for today. Remember yesterday. Think of tomorrow." As he read it, he heard three shots and a man he believes was the gunman shout, "Get down!"
Wik and his girlfriend ran and he heard seven or eight more shots. He didn't turn around.
"If I had looked back, I might not be standing here," he said. "I might have been one of the ones who got hit."
THE HEROES
"We had some true heroes stepping up," Clackamas County Sheriff Craig Roberts said during a news conference nearly five hours after the first shots were reported at the Clackamas Town Center.
Some emergency room nurses and a physician were at the mall when the gunfire erupted, and they immediately went to work to provide care to the wounded, he said. Others, including everyday citizens, also worked to help get the 10,000 people out of the mall.
IN THE AFTERMATH
Witnesses still sought
Lt. Rhodes said anyone who witnessed the shooting should get in contact with the Clackamas County Sheriff's Office by calling (503) 655-8211.
Mall information
The Clackamas Town Center will be closed on Wednesday. Clackamas Town Center management said they plan to post information for stores, employees and shoppers on their website. They will also post information so people who left belongings in the mall can retrieve them.
TriMet information
TriMet service will be impacted on Wednesday.
- MAX Green Line riders will need to board or de-board trains at the Southeast Fuller Road MAX station.
- Riders will not be allowed into the Clackamas Town Center Transit Center MAX Station. The parking garage at the transit center will also be closed.
- Parking spaces will be limited at the Fuller Road Park & Ride. Riders should use the Holgate Blvd. or Powell Blvd. Park & Rides.
- The 10 TriMet bus lines that service the Clackamas Town Center Transit Center and other bus stops in the mall's parking lot will continue to be detoured. The buses will serve temporary stops on Monterey Avenue, near the parking lot entrance by the movie theater, and at the Fuller Street MAX Station. The lines being detoured are: 28, 29, 30, 31, 71, 72, 79, 152, 155 and 156.
Interior map of the Clackamas Town Center
@suemcmann I respect your opinion that assault rifles don't belong in the streets. However, removing a citizens right to own them for protection is excessive. I agree that handguns for basic personal protection should TYPICALLY be sufficient. Lets not as a people be so naive to think that there will never be a time when an assault rifle WOULD be needed. I'm not paranoid and not a conspiracy theorist nor believe everything I see in the movies. But let's use a current movie as an example. Red dawn. If you don't know the premiss it's a movie about the US being invaded by a foreign country. It is in actuality very plausible. As the most free country we are a target. As a country that constantly meddles in other countries affairs wether it is right or wrong is not the point but again, it makes us a target. In such a case to not have any citizens with appropriate weapons we as a country would not be defenseless but sufficiently unprepared. Some would say its our military's job to have those weapons and defend us. My reply to them is that we frequently dispatch large portions of our nations military to foreign countries and if we were invaded at such a time our home land military would be caught off guard and we would be undermanned with out sufficient defense resources. This is just one of many scenarios that are real world potential scenarios in which more citizens comfortable enough to exercise their rights and protect themselves and families where the more of those people having the resources they need such as assault rifles is a GOOD thing. I will emphasize that to exercise the right to bear arms people should have TRAINING for each fire arm. They should have assessment to mental stability as well. But I do NOT believe that removing a countries right as a whole to bare certain arms can be justified nor would be proper. Criminals do NOT care about gun control laws nor are affected by them. Should there be regulation? Yes. And there is. Should there be training for guns that is mandatory? Yes and it varies state to state and is lacking. Would some people be more comfortable if some guns or less guns or even if there were NO guns for the general public? Sure. But those are the same people that fail to recognize that the REST of the world has guns. And they aren't all the good guys. And when the bad guys have more guns than the good guys or a nation has more people and guns than us and gets angry enough at us, those few who WERE comfortable with few guns or no guns in this country will REALLY wish they were more comfortable WITH guns before it was too late. JUST my opinion but I'm fairly certain it is a widely SHARED opinion. And a very good opinion. "End rant" :)
Something I haven't heard from anyone else is HOW could this seemingly normal young person have committed such an crime? How did he come this far in the plan and execution of this horrible incident and none of his friends or family had a clue anything was wrong? Did he leave a note? Why did he do this? What would he tell us about his state of mind if he were still alive?
Would he tell us he doesn't remember committing the crime like SIrhan Sirhan who was convicting of killing Robert Kennedy? And also like the young man in Colorado accused of the theatre shootings. He doesn't remember anything either. Too many unanswered questions.
@PTLD CITIZEN I'm sure we will EVENTUALLY have some insight in to the shooters motives and personal issues. Not that it will make any of it any more understandable. But I do believe it hits at the PROPER issue which isn't gun control issues but our issues as a people to let people fall through the cracks and become so unstable. Personally I believe that we as a people as a whole have become so extremely consumed in ourselves that we are blind to other people's issues and even warning signs that they are unstable. It may not be our responsibility but shouldn't we care enough about everyone around us to notice them and get to know them? It could just save a life, or many..
@PTLD CITIZEN many are asking that question. There is just no way of answering it, at least not yet.
I'm sure our enemies would like a ban on assault weapons in the US - ONLY. We cannot regulate the entire world and then would be sitting ducks.Â
Time would be better spent controlling who comes in through our porous borders or many other issues.Â
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Sign the petition to ban assault weapons. http://www.change.org/petitions/demand-that-a-federal-ban-on-assault-weapons-is-reinstated
 @Suvi Assault rifles have been strictly regulated since 1934 as they are a class 3 full auto. A typical example will cost nearly 20 thousand dollars and takes 6 months of background checks to purchase. An Ar-15 is just a rifle. Not even a very high powered one. It just looks scary.
@Suvi While we are at it lets ban car keys! They operate on the same basis: by HUMAN HANDS.
 @Suvi No, I will not sign a petition that removes a God given right that is guaranteed by the Constitution. But feel free to live in fear and ignorance.
Did you know there was an anti-war movement in the US before the bombing of Pearl Harbor?
Yes, there were people in denial then, too. The world was in turmoil at that time and they wished the US to stay out of any conflicts. They wished.Â
But, instead, those at Pearl Harbor would have been better served to be hyper-vigilant.Â
We don't need assault rifles on the streets. Â We use hunting rifles for hunting and handguns for protecting ourselves. What purpose does assault rifles in the hands of civilians serve, other than to shoot more people in a shorter amount of time? Â No one needs that many shots to kill a deer. Â So yes, gun control here IS an issue, as those KINDS of guns shouldn't be in the hands of civilians, on the streets. At all. Â
@SueMcMann Assault rifles don't shoot people by itself, it needs a mentally ill human to do it. We use those rifles for sporting purpose and as part of our constitutional right, which give us the freedom that people in other countries don't have. Educate yourself, please.
@SueMcMann Why would someone in the freest country on God's green earth, choose not only to live in fear, but to try and compel his or her neighbors to cower along with them?
I'm sure our enemies would pay you to say that.
Our enemies? Who would that be? You mean 3/4's of the middle east where we keep killing innocent people?
One thing has nothing to do with the other. What a strange thing to say.
 @SueMcMannÂ
What you are missing is that the founding fathers came up with the 2nd amendment to protect themselves against government oppression and tyranny.
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For this reason citizens need to have sufficient firepower to match that of the government and assault rifles is ample at this time. That may change of course.
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In case you were not aware the government now has the power to arrest US citizens and not charge them with a crime and can hold them till they die. They can keep them in a secret location and not be required to tell anyone they are holding them.
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That is how freedom dies. The right of habeas corpus is a basic right in the constitution which has been ignored to pass this law. It was signed by 0bama in 2011.
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Plus with the impending financial collapse of the US and world economy there will be civil unrest and you can rest assured that the roving gangs will have assault weapons so meeting that level of thereat is an option that I want to have.
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You live in an unrealistic world and don't look much at history. If you did you would be getting an assault rifle and lots of ammo.
 @RalphCramden  @SueMcMann Your "founding fathers" used muskets, RalphCramden. How much history did you look at yourself? Words of wisdom...meh! You're stuck on stupid.
 @NoAngel  @RalphCramden  @SueMcMann They wrote quite a bit back then about the citizens having access to all the terrible implements of the military. The level of technology at the time is irrelevant.Â
 @NoAngel  @SueMcMannÂ
I'm stuck on stupid??
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In case you were not aware the muskets that the "citizens" carried were state of the art weapons that were the same as the military carried.
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So, with that in mind we need to have access to some Ma Duces so we can keep pace with the military.
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How do you like them apples?
Thank you Ralph Cramden for those words of wisdom. Most people don't keep themselves well informed enough to know those things. The "sheeple" believe everything the media spouts without looking at other information.
I intend to protect myself by whatever means I can, including the use of whatever kind of weapons I may already own or can acquire. Or die protecting myself, my home, my family and my way or life as guaranteed by the constitution. I will not end up in a FEMA camp. For those of you who don't know what that is I'd strongly urge you to find out. And not through mainstream media.
This is a tragedy on many levels. However, you can't blame a "tool" such as a rifle, any rifle for this. It's the same as a car. It requires a human being to operate. It doesn't operate on its own.
Gun control is not the issue entirely. The weapon was stolen so regardless of greater control or not it wouldnt matter. I tend to agree with those who say that we should have more carrying but i feel as if often the acutal training for such a indcidnet in non existnet. Carrying a gun vs using it in a mall to kill a shooter with 1000's of poeple running around frantic, i mean you may shoot and kill a inncoent person REGARDLESS of your good intetnions. Or your may kill the bad guy, i dont know.
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its a tough situation.Â
 @toobadsoosadÂ
You would be surprised at how many cops are really bad shots and who don't train enough to be good at handling a firearm.
@RalphCramden So true. I had the opportunity to participate in an event several years ago in which law enforcement officers were also involved. I am by no means a crack shot, but I noticed that I was more accurate than at least half of the professionals there.
 @HenryBowmanÂ
I have given pointers to several SWAT snipers who I hunt with on a regular basis.
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The emphasis is off of shooting skills and on personal interaction skills. I have no issue with that but when the gun comes out and the trigger is pulled I would expect the bullet to go where it's supposed to go with a high degree of accuracy.
The sad part is the huge push that will come in oregon now to further gun control which is exactly the opposite of what should be done. Criminals will still easily obtain guns. However. If more citizens were properly trained and carried guns they would have the ability to defend themselves in situations like this. If more people were trained and had guns this lunatic may not have killed three people. Scrutinize me if you wish but this is MY opinion and I believe it to be very credible..
@Gary Sather Truth is the push will come harder from both sides. Almost instantly the conversations started both in favor people of carrying weapons to protect themselves and a ban on guns entirely. The conversation is the same just louder. I think you will find that those that want stronger gun control just want it even more today then they did when they woke up yesterday and the same is true for those that support gun ownership. I agree with you in the sense that those that choose to own need to be properly trained in all possible scenarios & incredibly important.
You are exactly right Gary. I was listening to KEX last night and that very subject already came up, tighter gun control laws and bans on certain types of weapons. Only hours after this tragic incidnet the agenda is being broadcast. What a lot of people fail to understand is that one thing leads to another. First it's so called "assault weapons". Then what? You have to have a hunting license to own a 300 Winchester? People need to wise up. I have a friend who recently said "I don't need a gun, my neighbor is a Police officer. If someone breaks in my house I'll call him". What an ignorant thing to say.
@GarySather You are correct and you have to know that the rabid anti-gunners in Oregon will publicly decry this tragedy, but in private are viewing this as just one more opportunity for them to advance their cause.
 @HenryBowman Regardless of ones personal views on gun control, the cold-hard- truth is that these types of shootings in public places are becoming more and more common in our country. What's becoming common place in the US is not very common in other Western, democratic countries. Do we just have more mentally unstable people here, much more than our Western counterparts, who have easy access to firearms? As a gun-loving American, I'm curious to know your thoughts on why these tragedies are happening so frequently?
@Detranced @HenryBowman You know, sometimes, I think that the mentally unstable people are the ones behind the scenes. Historically, people and organizations, in this country has developed and executed horribles plans to change the course of history and get what they want by using the mass commotion about specific affair(s). Our constitution has always been under fire by, not our foreign enemies, but by those whose live among us. Think about those whose take away our jobs to other countries, those whose are against our 2nd Amendment, those whose promote and bills into laws that tear apart our constitution, etc.
@Detranced @HenryBowman my thoughts are that as a whole we as people are so consumed in ourselves and our own lives we pay little to no attention to those around us. We let people fall through the cracks that are unstable and clearly need help. It may not be our responsibility to look out for other people but paying a little more attention to them could go a long way. It could just save lives.
Being gunless would leave all the people with something to steal defenseless.Â
Many neighborhoods are under seige at night with things stolen off porches, items ripped out of the ground, etc.
And HOME INVASIONS.Â
There is no way that women, for instance, can defend themselves against male invaders.Â
But, older men should have a way to defend themselves, too.
The police come too late and the nighttime criminals know that.Â
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I'm with you...is rare for me to go to any mall...but I had a hair appt @ 5 yesterday and planned on arriving few hours early to return items purchased nite before...but I talked on the phone an hour, something I rarely do as well, so ended up changing my plans...had I not taken that call, I would have been in Macy's around 3:30...my plan was to do some exchanges, shop a little, grab a bite for lunch'dinner then arrive @ my hair appt there at Phagans Beauty school in the mall.
Only God knows what would have happened had I kept my plans, putting me in the path of crazed shooter....perhaps I would have been victim #3.
 @HarryJuku Hiding in your closet is not making you any safer since at any moment a meteor could drop out of the sky and crush your closet into little bits. Best to live everyday to its fullest doing what you love and hope for the best. Live is a risk even without the crazy people...
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I can't believe that people think banning guns will solve incidents like this. First their are too many guns in America too be rounded up. If we are unable to spend the resources to round up all those living here illegally and send them home, what makes you think we have enough resources to round up all guns. Criminals are not going to just hand their guns over, even if law abiding citizens do. This guy could have easily gone into the mall and killed two unsuspecting people with a machete, baseball bat, crowbar or many other deadly items. I'll admit it is easier with a gun, but if someone want's to kill people they will find a way. On the flip side, it is easier to protect yourself from some nut case with a gun if you have one then if you don't. Yes, I know not all cases of self defense call for a gun, matter of fact most self defense situations can be handled better with other tools. This is one of the few cases that it would be beneficial to have a gun to defend yourself and others granted you have the right circumstances to take the shot.
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Although it is sad that two innocent people were killed, I think it could have easily been many more and am grateful it wasn't.
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My condolences and thoughts are with the families of the victims and I hope for Kristina Shevchenko's swift and full recovery!!!
 @DJK Google gun violence up 35% this year in England on the BBC website. They have some of the most strict gun laws in the world and it has not stopped gun violence....
@FreedomRocks @DJK EXACTLY !!! Mexico bans guns also, and look how well that's working out.......
As for the anti-gun crowd, you need to realize that there would be a lot more home invasions if burglars didn't fear that homeowners have guns. And homeowners DO have guns. Even the most quite, unassuming, gentle-looking, young and polite homeowners own them and it is due to the uptick of night-time crime.
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"quiet"
Who was the shooter?Â
"Some emergency room nurses and a physician were at the mall when the gunfire erupted, and they immediately went to work to provide care to the wounded, he said. Others, including everyday citizens, also worked to help get the 10,000 people out of the mall."
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This is what we should be talking about. People who did acts of greatness when nothing was asked of them.
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Now I was not so brave. My wife and i have a rule. The fastest runner at the time picks up the kid and runs. The other parent simply catches up when they can. Forgo belongings (although this time we didn't) and get out. Go half speed until you know you're not going INTO more trouble, then full speed until you cannot run anymore.
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We executed Plan "A" flawlessly, and I am not ashamed of doing so. I am not an EMT or medically trained other than some pretty basic CPR AED stuff. So it was better to not be another target.
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Let's celebrate heroes. We have too few of them it seems and tragedy like this shines a light on people who should have lights shining on them much more.
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I plan on going back to that mall soon. I wonât let one misguided and sick person make me afraid. Donât let a terrorist keep you from enjoying your life. Donât let people who want to cause you fear take away your freedom.
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Besides, by kid really love that Ferris Wheel.
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I'm swearing off shopping at big malls. They are dangerous with too many whack jobs with guns running around. I'll order on-line so the only danger I have is if the UPS guy shoots me when I answer the door. Ugh, I hate guns!!!!
 @peckishpete Time to put your aluminum foil hat back on Petey. Life is dangerous. Every day, there is the chance that something bad could happen, but on the flip side, something good can happen too. If you are willing to let the bad in life overcome the good in life, that's a sad reflection on what you see in the world.
@pdxd I was sarcastically trying to make a point that the danger of being shot at a mall is very low so why the rush in this country to arm ourselves against danger. I won't shop at malls because I don't like the experience. Not because of potential danger. Potential danger also does not limit by travelling. My wife and I have a trip planned to Jordan and Israel in April so unless Assad unleashes his chemical weapons or the area is involved in a nuclear war (the probability of this is higher than being shot at a mall), we are going.Â
 @peckishpeteÂ
Guns are a fact of life. Get over it.
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If you looked at reality you have a 9000 times better chance of dying by your doctor (iatrogenesis) than a gun. Also lightening, car crashes, and falling in your home, are much higher risk.
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You are afraid of a shadow. Put if you must live in fear being presented with real facts is not going to change that.
@RalphCramden Thanks for making my arguement. If the probability of getting killed by a gun is so low why then the urgent need to arm the population with concealed weapons?People who feel the need to carry a gun are the ones who are afraid of their shadow. And I was only being peckish in my comment.Â
 @FreedomRocks  @peckishpeteÂ
Logic and common sense versus education is not synonymous and the left places a high emphasis on education but forgets common sense and logic.
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I have a lot of safety features in my house and around my yard. I have seen to many serious injuries and deaths from things in the home that were considered safe.
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I have big vehicles that will survive a crash much better than these little hybrids that will fold up like an aluminum beer can bashed against the head of some college drunk. It's all about safety when I am driving.
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Carrying a gun is also a safety issue for me and my wife. No different than seatbelts as you stated.
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 @RalphCramden  @peckishpete Logic and left is an oxymoron right?
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Yep I wore a seat belt even when not legally required to do so because it made sense to protect yourself from being a human projectile in a serious accident. Did not need the government to tell me to do it and don't need them to tell me I can't protect myself with a gun if needed...
 @FreedomRocks  @peckishpeteÂ
Very good point. I have never used a seatbelt for what it was intended for but I put in on every time I get into a car.
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Law abiding citizens carrying guns is very logical. I know citizens who carry a gun all the time and they are safer than some of the cops I know packing guns. There are cops out there who are far more dangerous than most citizens.
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Yet the left seems to think that just because they are cops they are safer carrying guns. That kind of thinking really defies all logic.
 @peckishpete  @RalphCramden I can say the same for seat belts too since in 38 years I have never had one save my life yet I put mine on and make my kids where theirs every time we get in the car.
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Our leaders even pass laws to make us where seat belts and helmets to protect against that extremely unlikely chance you could get hurt. If they were doing their job they would make everyone carry a gun it makes just about as much sense....
 @peckishpete Â
An armed population is not for the occasional shooter or gangbanger. It is for protection against government who will always abuse citizens given the chance. Governments have murdered more people in one hour than all the mass murders in the history of the world.
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Carrying concealed is just an added bonus to protect themselves from an ever increasing violent society.
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Notice that police did not stop this guy. Had he been more aggressive he could have killed a lot more people. Eventually he would have encountered an armed citizen and the incident might well have ended right there.
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I refuse to be a victim and will not cower in the corner while someone decides if I am to live or die. I would rather go down fighting than be led off to an extermination camp or killed by a lunatic.
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And on another note, I don't go to doctors or take medications. I want to live.
 @peckishpete Your odds of getting shot at a mall are less than your odds of being killed in traffic.
@Playanekes I was being fascetious. And you only support my argument that the need to go around carrying guns to protect oneself is grossly overexaggerated.Â
 @peckishpete  @Playanekes I can say the same for seat belts too since in 38 years I have never had one save my life yet I put mine on and make my kids where theirs every time we get in the car!!!