When is it legal to shoot to kill?
PORTLAND, Ore. – The law is pretty clear: Few crimes justify using deadly force.
There have been recent cases of homeowners using deadly force on intruders. One man was exonerated, but the other was convicted because he crossed the line.
In October 2009 the owner of a Lewis County, Wash. house came face to face with a man on his stairs. The owner opened fire, killing the intruder. Sheriff Steve Mansfield said it was justified.
"He asked the intruder to stop his advance. He did not," Mansfield said. "After the second time, he chose to use deadly force."
Ron Louie was a former Hillsboro police chief and now teaches criminal justice courses at Portland Community College.
"The courts always hold your home is your castle," he said. "You fear for your life or the life of your family or others – that's what you have to articulate."
But you can still get into trouble using force inside your home.
Several years ago Keith Cramer of Sutherlin, Ore. began serving a year and half prison sentence after he shot and killed a stranger sleeping on his couch.
He wasn't justified because the intruder wasn't an immediate threat.
And outside your home the use of force is even harder to justify.
If you wanted to use a gun out on the street and you didn't want to get into trouble, someone would have to be attacking you, or you would have to be protecting others who were being attacked and you feared for their life.
Roger Witter ran into trouble with the law when he tried to stop two men who robbed a Gresham AT&T store by firing two shots into their car.
The thieves weren't wounded.
Prosecutors dropped charges against Witter only when he testified against the robbers.
On Tuesday morning police arrested 27-year-old Sean H. Doucette and charged him with second-
degree murder. According to court documents, witnesses told police that 19-year-old Iosif Dumitrash was walking away from a fight with Doucette when Doucette shot him several times, killing him.
Doucette's attorney said his client came home from work and saw Dumitrash breaking into his car.
The attorney said Doucette shot Dumitrash in self-defense when the two got into a physical fight.
If the case goes to trial, jurors will have to answer the question whether they believe Doucette reasonably feared for his life.
Police officers have more protection under the law when using deadly force because they are not allowed to retreat from a crime.
More information:
Oregon
If the autopsy showed that this guy was shot in the chest.How did that happen if he was walking away?Sean also gave warning to stop his advance he did not It became physical.If Sean felt his life was in threat than he did the right thing.If this is how it went down i would have done the same thing. It has also came out that this guy has been pilfering and robbing the area. This is clear case of self defence
 @Edward Maybe he was moving away backwards?
 @RandyH  @Edward Or maybe the "witness" is a friend who had reason to be bias! Maybe the witness was intoxicated too. Maybe since the witness didn't seem to realize his buddy was shot IN THE CHEST, wasn't really a witness, just trying to stick up for his friend who was engaging in criminal activity.
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 @Yo Mama Or if the Marine left his gun inside the house...
All the "TV juice" these gun nuts drink, see where it lands?, this guy believed he could revenge....shot him in the back....yeah, shot in the back going away, retreat is a word, jail will be a place for his contrition, but these unwashed commenters supporting this action, well, watch an learn, ol' Zeke {pulp fiction gun freak}and his paranoid hillbilly pals, can hone their tat skills in a cell with their name on it. What I pay taxes for.
 @Social Glimpse HE WAS SHOT IN THE CHEST!!!! Not in the back! This guy was a notorious theif who broke into homes and was part of an auto stripping ring, not quite the bible thumper he is being portrayed to be.
@Social Glimpse - Actually, the autopsy results came out today, and Josif was shot in the FRONT of his chest, NOT the back. If the reporters would slow down on the sensationalism there would be a lot less problems in out community. Trouble makers are often seeking attention and the media gives it to them.
 @Social Glimpse The only commenters here supporting the guy are trolls, even the pro-gun folks are not defending him...
@deejm2112 @Social Glimpse Trolls will be trolls. Problem here is these pepole dont no the whole story yet. Autopsy shows man was shot in chest if this is so how do you get shot in chest walking away.
Looks like Doucette is out on bail now.
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http://www.kgw.com/news/1-shot-in-Vancouver-after-prowler-call-188831361.html
If I was walking down the street and a car alarm goes off (because I got too close or the alarm was too sensitive), then the car owner tries to apprehend me. I throw a few punches to get free from his grasp and then he shoots me and kills me. All because I was going for a walk and he thought I was stealing his car. - I think some people are looking for reasons to use their guns, so much that they are seeing threats were there are none. I'll bet they'll find evidence that Dumitrash wasn't doing what Doucette thought he was doing and that it wasn't a fight but an attempt to get away from the gun happy, misjudging guy after him.
Just imagine the outcome if the real criminal hadn't been trespassing.
 @2012 Hope and ChangeÂ
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He could have been looking in the car, there is no law against that, based on available information and the limited facts, the kid was NOT trespassing.
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Another great response. Did your welfare check show up yet?
the shooter guy used too much force or so thats the general agreement. He probably did, and the kid didnt need to die or deserve death. Surely, his freinds will learn from this terrible lesson in life. If you are boozin with your buddies and one  happens to go for a cool off stroll, someone go with him to make sure things dont get messy. This rule No. 1 of drinking with buddies. Maybe they were all inexperienced with alcohol, were unaware of its mood and behavioral altering capabilities. There are reports from friends in the videos that were posted previously that the Dumitrash was drinking with his friends. Maybe dumitrash was causing trouble or commotion but to warrant death is overkill ( no pun intended)? lots of speculation i know. The cops should find who gave them the booze! The police had to push some of the kids back as they crossed to the DO NOT ENTER crime scene tape.
 I think we all probably know a few friend(s) who can really change when they drink and its the right thing to do as a friend to go and walk with them make sure they don't wonder to their deaths. Who knows maybe dumitrash wasnt drinking or was not really drunk?
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like this guy, granted he wasnt shot or anything but wondered around door to door lost and confused probabaly from the cold and booze. He finally found a place to rest and sadly passed away.Â
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http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Missing-University-of-Idaho-student-found-dead-187938761.html
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people, watch your friends if they are plastered. You may just save a life!Â
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 @toobadsoosad You make an extremely good point!
Sorry guys. An innocent Army veteran who didn't kill anybody the government didn't order him to has been arrested in New York for having not-yet-banned pre-ban magazines in his trunk. Â
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These laws aren't even in effect yet.A distinguished, peaceful US veteran is the first prisoner of the War on Some Guns, and this is going viral among the millions in the ranks who consider this the Pearl Harbor event. It's going to get ugly now.
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http://gunssavelives.net/blog/decorated-army-veteran-arrested-in-ny-for-possession-of-30-round-ar-magazines/
This guy had 30 round magazines. Anything above ten rounds is already illegal in New York. So the sheriff's department was enforcing existing laws - that's a problem now?Â
 @Max Quinn As usual Max is correct, if the guy had 10 round magazines he'd be free since the law is not yet in effect.
 @Playanekes Just curious:
Knowing when and where to discharge weapon- good
Not following bans and getting arrested for it- bad
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And I thought, in order to be a "responsible" gun owner, one has to know and follow ALL the rules/laws....
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 @Fed up Fed  @Playanekes Jeez, dude! Wipe the foam from your mouth and maybe breathe into a bag. I think we all see where your politics point: anti-gun, anti-police, anti-American.
 @Fed up Fed  @Playanekes "The fact that the police arrested him means that Haddad's brother is, of course, wrong"
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You are putting a lot of confidence in the fact that the police are correct. Â I don't think ANY police force has ever been right 100 percent of the time ever.,Â
http://www.wwnytv.com/news/local/LeRay-Man-Faces-Weapons-Possessions-Charges-185853881.html
 @PlayanekesÂ
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I think there is more to the story...
I have to admit though, the laws for this sort of thing are very grey. I have heard stories of people being put in jail for defending their homes. Or people being sued by the thief if they survived. It would be nice if they would clearly stated what you can and cant do and make it a big deal so that everyone knows what they can and cant do when if something like this ever happens to them.
@Newsin Never gonna happen because there are very unique circumstances in each case. We cant even get folks to understand how a stop sign works so good luck with that.
@jpdx00 It's always confusing:
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Except as provided in ORS 161.215 (Limitations on use of physical force in defense of a person) and 161.219 (Limitations on use of deadly physical force in defense of a person), a person is justified in using physical force upon another person for self-defense or to defend a third person from what the person reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of unlawful physical force, and the person may use a degree of force which the person reasonably believes to be necessary for the purpose. [1971 c.743 §22]
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161.219¹ Limitations on use of deadly physical force in defense of a person
Notwithstanding the provisions of ORS 161.209 (Use of physical force in defense of a person), a person is not justified in using deadly physical force upon another person unless the person reasonably believes that the other person is:
(1) Committing or attempting to commit a felony involving the use or threatened imminent use of physical force against a person; or
(2) Committing or attempting to commit a burglary in a dwelling; or
(3) Using or about to use unlawful deadly physical force against a person. [1971 c.743 §23]
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@iamtroglodite@yahoo.com Â
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So how'd you figure out the kid that got shot was an "a-s-s wipe" ? Could you share some of your brilliant deductions on this matter ?
@sargerator Because he was a thief breaking into a car that was not his. Thieves are all a-s-s wipes.
@Fed up Fed At least one did for sure ! ; )
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oswald & whitman were both marines (look up "whitman marine texas" if you need help, figure you know who oswald was), your point again ??
Umm he is not a murderer at this point in time. What we do know is he is a Marine and a trained security guard. I know you get your jollies off calling him a wanna be cop but thats for your problem.Â
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 So the word of a decorated marine and trained armed security guard versus a potential car thief? See how I can use descriptors to change the argument?  Â
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 To bad neither of the events have anythign to do with evidence. Evidence that I will wait for from a grand jury before calling either person negative names.Â
@iamtroglodite@yahoo.com Â
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So are you one of the commentors that are saying (or maybe just agreeing with) "eye witnesses are way over rated while trusting what a guy says that just used deadly force on a kid ?? So who has more to gain here ? An eye witness that claims he (or she) saw the kid backing away or a guy that is , more and more, looking like he's gonna spend a lot of time behind bars....hmmmmm
 @iamtroglodite@yahoo.com Nobody knows if he was breaking into a car, he might have stopped for a smoke, leaned up against a car and set off the alarm.Â
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The only indication is that a car alarm went off, those things go off all the time. Bottom line, even the kid was car prowling, he didn't deserve to die for it, period.
@deejm2112 @iamtroglodite@yahoo.com BUt he was not shot for breaking into the car, he was shot because of the physical fight, that is the claim. The evidence will tell whether that looks to be the case or not.Â
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As for Fed. Dont pretend to be a cop? why do you say that? Where is the evidenece he was trying to be a cop? because he tried to hold the man there? Becuause he tried to stop somebody from breaking into his property? People do that alot when the situation calls for it. People have held drunk drivers down trying to flee an accident, people have held intruders in their homes at gun point for the police. People have done the same in public. Are they too guilty of trying to be a cop?Â
 @jpdx00  @deejm2112 Based on the available information he was shot because he tried to flee.
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 @Fed up Fed  @iamtroglodite@yahoo.com Not to mention that the way we tend to hear sound is reactive. Did the other people the police talked to actually hear the car alarm first or the gun shots? The gun shots (or even bullets hitting the car) could have also caused the car alarm to go off.
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So, no evidence of breaking into a car or house or anything else (at this point), and we haven't heard much about if the kid killed even had a record or if others claimed he was difficult to deal with, tells me he wasn't the problem. At least not yet. I'm just willing to go with being in the wrong place at the wrong time until information suggests otherwise.
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 @gunnutz I wonder if this is another witness or if this is the one the media has already reported on... It would create a totally different story if two people reported this than only one.
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 @gunnutz The story gets better and better.... Now that I'm in tears it's time for me to back away. I'm lighting a candle for this kid and his loved ones and I'm saying a prayer. ...and I just DON'T pray, at all.
I've had a permit to carry for over 20 years & I'm definately for the right to bear arms, sadly in this case I believe Doucette used bad judgement. I want to defend him but I just can't.
Fact; He was not in his home, he was returing from work. Fact; It was not his car being prowled, it was his neighbor's. Fact; The police had already been called & were on the way-
The only justification for the use of deadly force in this case is "fear for one's life or the life of another person"
Dumitrash was NOT armed! Does anyone think he could've/would've killed Doucette with his bare hands? In the 10 mins it took for the police to arrive? I don't.
Doucette introduced a weapon but for that, nobody would be dead. Would Doucette be dead if he had not drawn & fired his gun? I do NOT believe he would, THAT tells me he did not have justification for using deadly force. My rule; you only unholster your weapon when you are going to fire it. It is NOT to scare or intimidate, it's to save your life, period!
If Dumitrash had pulled a knife, baseball bat or ANY other weapon then drawing the gun would've been justified in my opinion.
Let's say Doucette WAS a police officer, off duty and this happened.. Would he have been justified to shoot then? NO! The public would be outraged that a cop shot an unarmed teenager! I believe we have the right to defend our own life & the lives of others, I believe in responsible gun ownership & the right to carry BUT sadly this man made a bad judgement call when he drew his weapon.
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Whether Dumitrash was an actual prowler or not, whether they had a physical fight or not is not the point. The question is "was it reasonable to use deadly force" in this situation? Was Doucette in fear for his life? Would he be dead if he hadn't pulled the trigger?Â
The bottom line is if Doucette had not been armed nobody would be dead.
If Doucette had not introduced a weapon into the mix nobody would be dead.
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He should've gone into his home until the police arrived. Instead he attempted to detain what he believed was a prowler, a fight ensued, a weapon was introduced and now a young man is dead. Second degree murder? I don't know but NOT justified as self defense.
@cwpholder I will agree with you 100 percent once I see the facts and what prompted this man to fire.Â
Ok jpdx I'll give ya that. If it turns out Dumitrash was pumped up on pcp pr something, I might revise my opinion.
But four shots into an unarmed 19 yr old is a pretty tough sell for self defense, especially without some major drugs on board. We don't have all the facts yet but from what we have so far, it just doesn't fall into self defense. (In my humble opinion)
I guess we'll all see as the rest of the facts come out.
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Either way, it's a sad, sad case. Â
@Fed up Fed @cwpholder Â
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Thats gonna cause from brain freeze up on some of the wingnutz here....
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Defend the gun....er...bible...er.....AAAAARRRRGGG
@Fed- That's horrible! The more facts that come out, the worse this whole thing is.
It's frightening really- to know there are people carrying that believe this was justified. It makes me fear for my own sons. Having responsible gun owners carrying, is a comfort to me BUT having guns in the hands of people that are this misinformed on the laws is scary!
 @cwpholder Using facts and the laws in the same thread? What planet are you from?? I couldn't agree more! That's my exact same reasoning in this.Â
I've read through most of the comments & have been in agreement with what you've posted. Sadly it's these misconceptions of the law that cause many normally law abiding citizens to find themselves in jail/prison.
I hope & pray these people saying he was justified are not cwp holders! That would be frightening!
I know people are fed up with all the crime, I understand, I'm fed up too but having a license to carry a gun does NOT make you a police officer neither does having security officer training.
WE the law abiding citizens, the responsible gun owners, those carrying concealed, can NOT allow ourselves to become the criminal. We can not allow our "self defense" to become the offense.
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It's a sad, sad thing for all involved, both the Dumitrash & Doucette families. Â
I just keep returning to what I would've done, given the same situation. From all reports, I would've never unholstered my weapon. I read no threat of death, anywhere.
If Doucette can't honestly say "I would be dead if I had not fired my gun", then it's not self defense. Â
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John Wayne would have just knocked the guy out
 @Phuzz I thought Chuck Norris would do that?
What is making all these people believe deadly force is a reasonable reaction to minor infractions. I believe the attitude of "stand your own" is creating more problems than if fixes.Â
 @Lori Norman Okay, well, try to call the police then if somebody's in your home and you're about to be face-raped. It's "stand your ground."
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@jpdx00  can you hear him ?   da plane, da plane !
Want to know another type of wingnut out there? Its the type that always has to cite Rush, Beck, Lars and Faux news as you call it. I listen to Lars and he is not supportive of this man at this time. Beck, never heard him advocate killing someone. Never listened to Rush. Faux News as you call it reports the same stories as all the libs station.  Might want to look in the mirror next time you use the word wingnut.
@Fed up Fed @Playanekes @Lori Norman Â
"What is with you wingnuts and reading comprehension?"
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It's exactly the "wingnutz" syndrome, you know, listeners of rush, beck, lars, faux nooze and their rhetoric of , "the black Kenyon illegal prez and his henchman holder, biden and hilary are coming to take away your guns, your freedom AND your wife !"
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These guys REALLY believe that so much that they get whipped up into frenzies ! Remember the 2010 elections , after 2 years of obama, wingnutz with rifles were gathering at anti obama-pro repub political rally's..they were psyched up...I believe they succumb to a mass hystaria mentality... and maybe, just maybe, this marine (already trained to get psyched up) just went over the edge !
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you know like in "alices restaurant"
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NzFJxX8yoY
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 @Fed up Fed  @Playanekes  @Lori Norman Actually The castle doctrine doesn't always apply either "Several years ago Keith Cramer of Sutherlin, Ore. began serving a year and half prison sentence after he shot and killed a stranger sleeping on his couch."
They have to be making a credible threat in your house.Â
This isn't the wild west people you can't just shoot someone you see committing a minor crime like dirty harry or John Wayne.,Especially if they are running away.
 @Lori Norman Amen!