3 flu deaths already reported in Washington

 @portlandborn83  @deejm2112 Agreed..I remember the first swine flu panic when they rushed a vaccine through and had to pull it because of too many bad reactions.

 

I know the risks, I still choose to get it.

 @ormom  Just pack up your computer if you're not capable of looking things up and doing your own research. Actually, all of the information is accurate. If you're not willing to do the hard work then you should go back to watching television.

 @portlandborn83 

Most of the info you posted is pure bunk or a kernal of truth twisted into a falsehood. You can believe in it all you want but it doesn't change the fact it's bunk - an opinion isn't science. In fact, some of your links state the exact opposite of what you think they say and the vaccine/autism "research' has been completely discredited even though the alternative medicine people (who make a living off their websites from selling a bunch of worthless supplements to suckers btw) won't let it die the death it deserves.

 

I'll take 70% effectiveness against a virus with a very high morbidity and mortality over the 0% effectiveness of no vaccine any day. And if it weren't for so many people who refuse to get vaccinated and keep diseases circulating it would be a virtual 100%. Nothing in life is without risk but for heaven's sake learn enough basic science to be able to evaluate the data you read. You can compile all the lists you want of potential risks from vaccines but don't forget the other side of the ledger of all the risks of actually getting a serious disease. The disease almost always trumps.

 @ormom There's always two sides to every story, especially when it comes to medical "science" and media.  This story is nothing but a scare tactic to get people to get a flu shot that is ineffective.  And it is only 70% effective for those 3 strains and no one mentions the side effects at all in the media.

 

There has been no independent studies analyzing the long term use of vaccines on the population.

 

The drug companies pay for their own studies and say their products are more safe than independent studies.

 

Many others in Oregon agree with me and we have the highest unvaccinated rates in the nation.

The additives found within the vaccines are harmful and are known carcinogens.

 @portlandborn83 

It's not my defenses that are the problem for you - it's medical science.

 @ormom Sounds like you work for the medical industry so I won't be able to penetrate your defenses, go ahead and keep medicating the population causing people to turn into zombies.

 @portlandborn83 

But they are not the quotes you threw out above are they? IMO you dumped a bunch of serious misinformation on a public website in your original list of paragraphs and I'd like you to take ownership of your sources and defend them if you can or retract them if you can't.

 

As far as some European countries pulling some batches of the vaccine you should give the whole story. There were some batches that appeared to have whilte flecks in them that might be contamination. It is a safety concern about a limited number of batches and has nothing to do with the safety or efficacy of flu vaccine in general. Or did you bother to actually read and digest the meaning in the articles?

 @ormom Here's the study on flu vaccines being less effective with the elderly:

http://cmbi.bjmu.edu.cn/news/report/2005/flu/98.pdf

 

Here's the study on how there are severe discrepancies between policy and evidence:

http://www.bmj.com/content/333/7574/912?ehom=

 

Here's the story on how germany is banning the flu vaccine because they are concerned about safety:

http://www.thelocal.de/national/20121026-45791.html

 

Here's the page devoted to children getting seizures after a vaccine:

http://www.cdc.gov/flu/protect/vaccine/febrile.htm

 

Info on guillai-barre syndrome:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guillain%E2%80%93Barr%C3%A9_syndrome

 

Here's a link about how thimerosal is a neurotoxin:

http://cfpub.epa.gov/ncer_abstracts/index.cfm/fuseaction/display.pubfulltext/publication_id/43181

 

Here's a bunch of studies linking thimerosal and neurological disorders:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14976450

 

Here's an article about how vaccine companies are immune to lawsuits:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/02/22/AR2011022206008.html

 

and 3 more studies on how vaccines are ineffective:

http://summaries.cochrane.org/CD004879/vaccines-for-preventing-influenza-in-healthy-children

http://summaries.cochrane.org/CD004876/vaccines-for-preventing-seasonal-influenza-and-its-complications-in-people-aged-65-or-older

http://summaries.cochrane.org/CD001269/vaccines-to-prevent-influenza-in-healthy-adults

 

I got a few more but this should be a good start...

 @portlandborn83 

I stopped after the first one. Healthandwellnessoptions isn't a source any scientist will give credence to.

If you have other sources there by all means list them so we can all be informed.

 @portlandborn83  @deejm2112  @advocatus http://healthmad.com/health/10-health-benefits-of-drinking-beer/

 

My point is formaldehyde is more widely used than people realize, but our great local beer doesn't contain any.

 

Beer is like a miracle drink when it comes down to it.

@deejm2112 @advocatus And how is beer good for you?

 @portlandborn83 

...and that's bad enough for your health and the health of others you may make health decisions for. But it's really unfortunate when you spread the misinformation to others on a public forum.

 @portlandborn83 

Like I tried to explain above. You cannot compare the minute quantity of a bacteriocidal drug in a vial of vaccine with an antibiotic prescibed for an infection in humans and assume that the first has the same effect as the second. I'm afraid you are simply parroting what you read without understanding it and therefore are not likely to be able to evaluate the quality of the (mis) information you are taking in.

 @ormom "Antibiotics which are added to some vaccines to prevent the growth of germs (bacteria) during production and storage of the vaccine. No vaccine produced in the United States contains penicillin."

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/additives.htm

 @portlandborn83 

Really? I think you are confusing a bacteriocide with an antibiotic. Also if you are comparing the amount of bacteriocide in a vial of vaccine with antibiotics prescribed for an infection in the body you are off in scale by an incredibly enormous factor. You are comparing an apple to a whole orange grove.

Vaccines contain antibiotics, the flu vaccine specifically contains antibiotics...

 @portlandborn83  

Why would you think that vaccines act like antibiotics?

 @lee986321  its "flu", not "flue"

 @RalphCramden 

If you doubt my expertise then refute what I've written.

 @ormom 

Too funny.

 

I will post whatever I want to. You can take it or leave as can others. I don't need you to tell me anything. If you think you are setting me straight you are deluded. I have no idea who you are.

 

You are some made up name on a web site and have no credentials, credibility, no degrees, no experience, no SS number, no bank account or anything else. You are nobody just like everyone else here who posts with an anonymous name.

 @RalphCramden 

I'm more concerned about correcting your misinformation than I am about setting you straight although you're welcome anyway. Now you can return the favor by not posting medical articles you are unqualified to evaluate for scientific worthiness.

 

 @ormom 

Well thanks expert. I appreciate you setting me straight. I have idea how I would function if it weren't for you.

 

I guess I will just pass the flu around it I get it. No shots for me since it might not work. Like I said in my first post, I got a flu shot and a week later I got the flu.

 @RalphCramden 

Wrong again, Ralph. Vaccines are never 100% effective in 100% of people. They work best when everyone gets them because then the virus is stopped in it's tracks when it can't cause an infection that then gets passed on to another and another. Unvaccinated people shed much more virus than vaccinated people. That's why hospitals and nursing homes require employees to get vaccinated - so they don't harbor the virus and pass it along to their susceptible patients - even the ones who may have been vaccinated but are still at risk because of their poor immune response and co-morbid disease burden.

 

That's why smallpox was eradicated in nature. We passed the tipping point of sustainablity by vaccinating a high enough percentage of the world's pop. that the remaining virus' could no longer spread and reproduce and they died out. We could do the same thing with the flu and every other vaccine preventable disease if only we had a high enough percentage vaccinated. We are seeing whooping cough and measles which were practically non existent for a number of years in the US making a comeback due to unvaccinated kids in schools - most of them with parents who would rather get their medical advice from alternative bloggers and celebrities like Jenny McCarthy than legitimate doctors and scientists. Very few people have legitimate medical reasons not to get vaccinated - risk vs benefit included -  and everyone who refuses to do so potentially puts others at needless risk.

 @ormom 

If others have the vaccine they have nothing to worry about because I can't pass it on to them, right. Only those who don't get the vaccine need to be concerned and they know the risks like I do.

 

How can an anonymous person be an expert? I am just a nobody posting on a web site. Why to you insist on calling me an expert?

 @RalphCramden 

Geez is right. It is so tiresome to have to educate the 'experts' about the misinformation they spread. Please look it up - iatrogenic refers to illness caused by medical treatment. It is not necessarily a medical error and in fact is usually not a medical error which is a strictly defined occurance. People can be treated 100% appropriately according to accepted standards and still suffer unforseen illness from it. A person who gets an allergic reaction to an appropriately prescribed drug has suffered an iatrogenic illness/effect. That is NOT a medical error, it is an unforseen idiosyncratic occurance. A person with heart failure could have an idiosyncratic reaction to an appropriately prescribed drug and die. A person could fail to report warning signs they were told to report to their doctor that might have altered their treatment and prevented harm. These are all examples of iatrogenic illness that are NOT medical error.

 

Anyone with any common sense knows that most flu deaths, or any deaths,  occur in the sick and elderly. One reason many vaccines are a public health issue and not just a private decision is because of the necessity of herd immunity to be effective - which you have opted out of, thereby potentially bringing harm to susceptible others if you pass along the virus. You already admitted you didn't say you got the flu from a flu shot so apparently there is some other as yet unrevealed and probably erroneously held notion as to why you will never get one again. So, don't be a hypocrite and get one when you are on the outer fringe of health, OK?

 @ormom 

Iatrogenesis is a medical error.....geeeez. Iatrogenic death is death from a medical mistake.....

 

What the CDC doesn't mention is that most how die from the flu are the very young, the very old, the very frail, and these with immune deficiencies.

 

In other words the outer fringe of health. If the flu didn't get them, then something else would get them.

 

I will not be getting a flu shot ever again.

 @RalphCramden 

It's impossible to get into a good discussion on this topic in a forum like this. You'll get no argument from me that iatrogenic morbidity and mortality is too high but it's not a leading cause of death. Even though I am in the health care profession I keep my frail elderly mother as far away from doctors and hospitals as possible and only allow tx that improves her comfort or in which the sure benefit outweighs the risk.

 

One of the reasons iatrogenic death cannot be measured is because it's too undefined (unlike death from medical error) and is usually an either/or situation. Who is to say a person who suffers a supposed iatrogenic death wouldn't have died anyway or perhaps died even sooner and with more suffering if not treated? These issues can only be weighed and theorized about since we can't measure what might have happened. It is false to say it is the 3rd leading cause of death regardless of what someone has theorized in a paper. It is an unprovable and is why the CDC doesn't measure it, which is as it should be.

 

I hope you will note however that influenza and pneumonia are # 8 on the CDC list. If that isn't a valid medical reason to get a flu shot I don't know what is.

 @ormom 

Here is the most extensive study of iatrogenesis done in the US. It was done in 1997 and was independently researched.

http://www.ourcivilisation.com/medicine/usamed/deaths.htm

 

The CDC has no idea what iatrogenic deaths are because there is no standard reporting criteria.

 @ormom I think vaccines are harmful and I do talk to friends and family about illnesses and in general they are very healthy.  My opinion is that most people get some other bug and not the flu, most doctors don't even test people to determine what they have.  I am against antibiotics and harming our society with unnecessary vaccines.  The medical industry is harming americans and I believe vaccines ruined my immune system.  

 @portlandborn83 

"I have not met anyone who has the "flu" in over 10 years."

Do you really ask everyone you meet this question and whether they were vaccinated or not?

 

First rule of scientific inquiry: personal anecdotes do not count as hard data.

 

The reason you haven't met anyone who had the flu in over 10 years is probably because of all the vaccinated people in the general pop. who don't pass the flu along to others and thereby protect you as well. Kind of a parasitic benefit for you, isn't it?

 

You can certainly choose not to get the vaccine if you don't want to. It's bad enough you might pass the flu along to others but it really torques me when people come on here and spout all kinds of misinformation they glean from dubious bloggers and potentially do harm to others.

 @RalphCramden

It usually pays to fact check the 'experts' on here.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/lcod.htm

Nope, not only NOT the 3rd leading cause, it's not even in the top 10. Wherever do you get your data anyway - do you make it up as you go?

 @RalphCramden  @portlandborn83 The first leading cause being life...right?

 @deejm2112  @portlandborn83 

Were you aware that the 3rd leading cause of death is iatrogenesis. No one talks about that. They try to keep it real quiet.

@deejm2112

Like all vaccines, the flu vaccine only gives a temporary immunity, and only to the to the virus strains contained in the vaccine. The only way to get permanent immunity to a strain of the flu is to recover from it naturally. Natural immunity to a particular strain of flu can be protective if that strain, or closely related strains, come around again in the future. However, because the vaccine only provides a 70 percent chance of temporary immunity to selected strains, and those strains may or may not be prevalent, health officials say you need to get a flu shot every year.

Keep on drinking the kool aid then.  Did you know that most "flus" hospitalize most people when they get it, its a severe illness.  Most people get colds which only last for a few days...the shot does not protect you from jack in my opinion and I have not met anyone who has the "flu" in over 10 years.