Israel intensifies attacks, despite truce talk
GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip (AP) - A diplomatic push to end Israel's nearly weeklong offensive in the Gaza Strip gained momentum Tuesday, with Egypt's president predicting that airstrikes would end within hours and Israel's prime minister saying his country would be a "willing partner" to a cease-fire with the Islamic militant group Hamas.
As international diplomats raced across the region to cement a deal, a senior Hamas official said an agreement was close even as relentless airstrikes and rocket attacks between the two sides continued.
"We haven't struck the deal yet, but we are progressing and it will most likely be tonight," Moussa Abu Marzouk said Tuesday from Cairo, where cease-fire talks were being held.
Israeli officials were more circumspect, saying only that "intensive efforts" were under way to end the fighting. Israeli media quoted Defense Minister Ehud Barak as telling a closed meeting that Israel wanted a 24-hour test period of no rocket fire to see if Hamas could enforce a truce.
In what appeared to be a last-minute burst of heavy fire, Israeli tanks and gunboats shelled targets late Tuesday, and an airstrike killed two brothers riding on a motorcycle. The men weren't identified.
The fighting came shortly before U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton was set to arrive. President Barack Obama dispatched her to the Mideast from Cambodia, where she had accompanied him on a visit.
Egyptian President Mohammed Morsi, perhaps the most important interlocutor between Hamas, which rules the Palestinian territory, and the Israelis, said the negotiations between the two sides would yield "positive results" during the coming hours.
Israel demands an end to rocket fire from Gaza and a halt to weapons smuggling into Gaza through tunnels under the border with Egypt. It also wants international guarantees that Hamas will not rearm or use Egypt's Sinai region, which abuts both Gaza and southern Israel, to attack Israelis.
Hamas wants Israel to halt all attacks on Gaza and lift tight restrictions on trade and movement in and out of the territory that have been in place since Hamas seized Gaza by force in 2007. Israel has rejected such demands in the past.
In Brussels, a senior official of the European Union's foreign service said a cease-fire would include an end of Israeli airstrikes and targeted killings in Gaza, the opening of Gaza crossing points and an end to rocket attacks on Israel. The official spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak to the media.
Violence raged on as the talks continued. An airstrike late Tuesday killed two journalists who work for the Hamas TV station, Al-Aqsa, according to a statement from the channel. The men were in a car hit by an airstrike, Gaza health official Ashraf al-Kidra said. Israel claims that many Hamas journalists are involved in militant activities. Earlier this week it targeted the station's offices, saying it served as a Hamas communications post.
By Tuesday, 133 Palestinians, including at least 54 civilians, were killed since Israel began an air onslaught that has so far included nearly 1,500 strikes. Some 840 people have been wounded, including 225 children, Gaza health officials said.
Four Israelis, including an 18-year-old soldier who was struck by rocket fire on Tuesday, have also been killed and dozens wounded since the fighting began last week, the numbers possibly kept down by a rocket-defense system that Israel developed with U.S. funding. More than 1,000 rockets have been fired at Israel this week, the military said.
Late Tuesday, a Palestinian rocket hit a house in the central Israeli city of Rishon Lezion, wounding two people and badly damaging the top two floors of the building, police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld said. In other violence, a 60-year-old Israeli woman was seriously wounded in a firebombing attack as she drove in the West Bank, police said.
With the death toll rising, the international community stepped up efforts to bring a halt to the fighting that began last Wednesday with an Israel's assassination of the Hamas military chief.
"If a long-term solution can be put in place through diplomatic means, then Israel would be a willing partner to such a solution. But if stronger military action proves necessary to stop the constant barrage of rockets, Israel wouldn't hesitate to do what is necessary to defend our people," Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said during a joint press conference in Jerusalem with visiting U.N. chief Ban Ki-moon.
Ban condemned Palestinian rocket attacks, but urged Israel to show "maximum restraint."
"Further escalation benefits no one," he said.
Minutes before Ban's arrival in Jerusalem from Egypt, Palestinian militants fired a rocket toward Jerusalem, just the second time it has targeted the city. The rocket fell in an open area southeast of the city.
Jerusalem had previously been considered beyond the range of Gaza rockets - and an unlikely target because it is home to the Al-Aqsa Mosque compound, Islam's third-holiest shrine.
Earlier Tuesday, a man identified as Hamas' militant commander urged his fighters to keep up attacks on Israel. Speaking from hiding on Hamas-run TV and radio, Mohammed Deif said Hamas "must invest all resources to uproot this aggressor from our land," a reference to Israel.
Israeli warplanes dropped leaflets on several Gaza neighborhoods asking residents to evacuate and head toward the center of Gaza City along specific roads. The army "is not targeting any of you, and doesn't want to harm you or your families," the leaflets said. Palestinian militants urged residents to ignore the warnings, calling them "psychological warfare."
Clinton was scheduled to meet with Netanyahu in Jerusalem, Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas in the West Bank and Egyptian leaders in Cairo. Turkey's foreign minister and a delegation of Arab League foreign ministers traveled to Gaza on a separate truce mission. Airstrikes continued to hit Gaza even as they entered the territory.
"Turkey is standing by you," Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu told the Hamas prime minister in Gaza, Ismail Haniyeh. "Our demand is clear. Israel should end its aggression immediately and lift the inhumane blockade imposed on Gaza."
It was unclear how diplomatic efforts to achieve a cease-fire and stave off a threatened Israeli ground invasion into Gaza were hampered by the hard-to-bridge positions staked out by both sides - and by the persistent attacks. Thousands of Israeli soldiers have been dispatched to the Gaza border in case of a decision to invade.
The U.S. considers Hamas, which has killed hundreds of Israelis in suicide and other attacks, to be a terror group and does not meet with its officials. The Obama administration blames Hamas for the latest eruption of violence and says Israel has the right to defend itself. At the same time, it has warned against a ground invasion, saying it could send casualties spiraling.
Netanyahu said earlier Tuesday that Israel was exploring a diplomatic solution, but wouldn't balk at a broader military operation.
"I prefer a diplomatic solution," Netanyahu said in a statement after meeting with Germany's Foreign Minister Guido Westerwelle, who was also in the region trying to advance peace efforts. "But if the fire continues, we will be forced to take broader measures and will not hesitate to do so."
Westerwelle said a truce must be urgently pursued, "but of course, there is one precondition for everything else, and this is a stop of the missile attacks against Israel."
The conflict erupted last week, when a resurgence in rocket fire from Gaza set off the Israeli offensive, which included hundreds of airstrikes on militants' underground rocket launchers and weapons' stores.
The onslaught turned deadlier over the weekend, as airstrikes began targeting the homes of suspected Hamas activists, leading to a spike in civilian casualties. Israel sent warnings in some cases, witnesses said, but in other instances missiles hit suddenly, burying residents under the rubble of their homes.
Hamas is deeply rooted in densely populated Gaza, and the movement's activists live in the midst of ordinary Gazans. Israel says militants are using civilians as human shields, both for their own safety and to launch rocket strikes from residential neighborhoods.
The conflict showed signs of spilling into the West Bank, as hundreds of Palestinian protesters in the town of Jenin clashed with Israeli forces during a demonstration against Israel's Gaza offensive.
Two Palestinian protesters were killed in anti-Israel demonstrations in the West Bank on Monday, according to Palestinian officials. Separate clashes occurred Tuesday in Ramallah, the seat of the Palestinian government, during the funeral for one of the dead.
Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, who lost control of Gaza to Hamas in 2007, now governs from the West Bank. Abbas claims to represent both areas, and there is widespread sympathy among West Bank Palestinians for their brethren in Gaza.
As international diplomats raced across the region to cement a deal, a senior Hamas official said an agreement was close even as relentless airstrikes and rocket attacks between the two sides continued.
"We haven't struck the deal yet, but we are progressing and it will most likely be tonight," Moussa Abu Marzouk said Tuesday from Cairo, where cease-fire talks were being held.
Israeli officials were more circumspect, saying only that "intensive efforts" were under way to end the fighting. Israeli media quoted Defense Minister Ehud Barak as telling a closed meeting that Israel wanted a 24-hour test period of no rocket fire to see if Hamas could enforce a truce.
In what appeared to be a last-minute burst of heavy fire, Israeli tanks and gunboats shelled targets late Tuesday, and an airstrike killed two brothers riding on a motorcycle. The men weren't identified.
The fighting came shortly before U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton was set to arrive. President Barack Obama dispatched her to the Mideast from Cambodia, where she had accompanied him on a visit.
Egyptian President Mohammed Morsi, perhaps the most important interlocutor between Hamas, which rules the Palestinian territory, and the Israelis, said the negotiations between the two sides would yield "positive results" during the coming hours.
Israel demands an end to rocket fire from Gaza and a halt to weapons smuggling into Gaza through tunnels under the border with Egypt. It also wants international guarantees that Hamas will not rearm or use Egypt's Sinai region, which abuts both Gaza and southern Israel, to attack Israelis.
Hamas wants Israel to halt all attacks on Gaza and lift tight restrictions on trade and movement in and out of the territory that have been in place since Hamas seized Gaza by force in 2007. Israel has rejected such demands in the past.
In Brussels, a senior official of the European Union's foreign service said a cease-fire would include an end of Israeli airstrikes and targeted killings in Gaza, the opening of Gaza crossing points and an end to rocket attacks on Israel. The official spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak to the media.
Violence raged on as the talks continued. An airstrike late Tuesday killed two journalists who work for the Hamas TV station, Al-Aqsa, according to a statement from the channel. The men were in a car hit by an airstrike, Gaza health official Ashraf al-Kidra said. Israel claims that many Hamas journalists are involved in militant activities. Earlier this week it targeted the station's offices, saying it served as a Hamas communications post.
By Tuesday, 133 Palestinians, including at least 54 civilians, were killed since Israel began an air onslaught that has so far included nearly 1,500 strikes. Some 840 people have been wounded, including 225 children, Gaza health officials said.
Four Israelis, including an 18-year-old soldier who was struck by rocket fire on Tuesday, have also been killed and dozens wounded since the fighting began last week, the numbers possibly kept down by a rocket-defense system that Israel developed with U.S. funding. More than 1,000 rockets have been fired at Israel this week, the military said.
Late Tuesday, a Palestinian rocket hit a house in the central Israeli city of Rishon Lezion, wounding two people and badly damaging the top two floors of the building, police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld said. In other violence, a 60-year-old Israeli woman was seriously wounded in a firebombing attack as she drove in the West Bank, police said.
With the death toll rising, the international community stepped up efforts to bring a halt to the fighting that began last Wednesday with an Israel's assassination of the Hamas military chief.
"If a long-term solution can be put in place through diplomatic means, then Israel would be a willing partner to such a solution. But if stronger military action proves necessary to stop the constant barrage of rockets, Israel wouldn't hesitate to do what is necessary to defend our people," Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said during a joint press conference in Jerusalem with visiting U.N. chief Ban Ki-moon.
Ban condemned Palestinian rocket attacks, but urged Israel to show "maximum restraint."
"Further escalation benefits no one," he said.
Minutes before Ban's arrival in Jerusalem from Egypt, Palestinian militants fired a rocket toward Jerusalem, just the second time it has targeted the city. The rocket fell in an open area southeast of the city.
Jerusalem had previously been considered beyond the range of Gaza rockets - and an unlikely target because it is home to the Al-Aqsa Mosque compound, Islam's third-holiest shrine.
Earlier Tuesday, a man identified as Hamas' militant commander urged his fighters to keep up attacks on Israel. Speaking from hiding on Hamas-run TV and radio, Mohammed Deif said Hamas "must invest all resources to uproot this aggressor from our land," a reference to Israel.
Israeli warplanes dropped leaflets on several Gaza neighborhoods asking residents to evacuate and head toward the center of Gaza City along specific roads. The army "is not targeting any of you, and doesn't want to harm you or your families," the leaflets said. Palestinian militants urged residents to ignore the warnings, calling them "psychological warfare."
Clinton was scheduled to meet with Netanyahu in Jerusalem, Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas in the West Bank and Egyptian leaders in Cairo. Turkey's foreign minister and a delegation of Arab League foreign ministers traveled to Gaza on a separate truce mission. Airstrikes continued to hit Gaza even as they entered the territory.
"Turkey is standing by you," Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu told the Hamas prime minister in Gaza, Ismail Haniyeh. "Our demand is clear. Israel should end its aggression immediately and lift the inhumane blockade imposed on Gaza."
It was unclear how diplomatic efforts to achieve a cease-fire and stave off a threatened Israeli ground invasion into Gaza were hampered by the hard-to-bridge positions staked out by both sides - and by the persistent attacks. Thousands of Israeli soldiers have been dispatched to the Gaza border in case of a decision to invade.
The U.S. considers Hamas, which has killed hundreds of Israelis in suicide and other attacks, to be a terror group and does not meet with its officials. The Obama administration blames Hamas for the latest eruption of violence and says Israel has the right to defend itself. At the same time, it has warned against a ground invasion, saying it could send casualties spiraling.
Netanyahu said earlier Tuesday that Israel was exploring a diplomatic solution, but wouldn't balk at a broader military operation.
"I prefer a diplomatic solution," Netanyahu said in a statement after meeting with Germany's Foreign Minister Guido Westerwelle, who was also in the region trying to advance peace efforts. "But if the fire continues, we will be forced to take broader measures and will not hesitate to do so."
Westerwelle said a truce must be urgently pursued, "but of course, there is one precondition for everything else, and this is a stop of the missile attacks against Israel."
The conflict erupted last week, when a resurgence in rocket fire from Gaza set off the Israeli offensive, which included hundreds of airstrikes on militants' underground rocket launchers and weapons' stores.
The onslaught turned deadlier over the weekend, as airstrikes began targeting the homes of suspected Hamas activists, leading to a spike in civilian casualties. Israel sent warnings in some cases, witnesses said, but in other instances missiles hit suddenly, burying residents under the rubble of their homes.
Hamas is deeply rooted in densely populated Gaza, and the movement's activists live in the midst of ordinary Gazans. Israel says militants are using civilians as human shields, both for their own safety and to launch rocket strikes from residential neighborhoods.
The conflict showed signs of spilling into the West Bank, as hundreds of Palestinian protesters in the town of Jenin clashed with Israeli forces during a demonstration against Israel's Gaza offensive.
Two Palestinian protesters were killed in anti-Israel demonstrations in the West Bank on Monday, according to Palestinian officials. Separate clashes occurred Tuesday in Ramallah, the seat of the Palestinian government, during the funeral for one of the dead.
Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, who lost control of Gaza to Hamas in 2007, now governs from the West Bank. Abbas claims to represent both areas, and there is widespread sympathy among West Bank Palestinians for their brethren in Gaza.
The news being a little slow on the uptake this morning, I'll comment on the Muslim Terrorist bombing of the bus full of innocent people on this story instead. What more reason does Israel need to flatten every terrorist pos than this. Good work Mrs. Bill Clinton, now what?Â
I don't believe all that is said about this situation.. We are being fed information from Israel only.. When you go to the news in the middle east and read what really went on the story is quite different.. I just want all the information, not just what I'm fed... Israel is not always kind to their neighbors...
 @dougrpdx This article references Egyptian, Hamas, Gaza Health officials, and a Turkish Foreign Minister as sources. Not sure where you think the information being fed to us is "from Israel only"
5 Israelis dead, 130 Palestinians dead...according to Hamas math, each Israeli is worth 1000 Palestinians so Israel owes them about another 4870 deaths...this will not end well for Hamas.....Understand this Israel respects life and want to live in peace.....You can not negotiate with terrorists like Hamas they dont care about life not even theirs.
New headline
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"Iranian, Syrian and Russian armament sent to Palestinians doesn't fool Israel into truce talks."
âNo country on Earth would tolerate missiles raining down on its citizens from outside its borders" Obama
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Hmmm, I wonder if he feels the same way when we rain hell fire missiles down on Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen, Somaili, Libya....and all the rest of them!
There doesn't seem to be any actual war imminent. Normally, Israel doesn't announce what it will do first, it just does it. As there was so much "talk" about preparations first, no actual attack on Gaza appears imminent. Â Of course, I could be wrong, but based on previous conflicts involving Israel, actions speak louder than words.
What does Obama do? He sends in Mrs. bill Clinton, Henry Kissinger's double. Does Obama honestly think that a country that doesn't allow women to vote, drive, go to school or even look a man in the eyes is going to give a rats azz what Mrs. Bill Clinton says?
 @last boyscout What ? Do you remember Golda Meir ?
This comment has been deleted
 @wahoo So the epitome of being an open minded Liberal is to make up childish names?Â
 @last boyscout Actually Gaza is not a country....Israel and the US won't allow the Palestinians the same rights as Israel.....talk about hypocrisy.
 @B Smizzle  @last boyscout Offer was on the table many times, but Palestinians refuse it. Both Hamas and Fatakh charters call for destruction of Israel, so no hypocrisy.
 @Julie  @last boyscout Lie....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_242
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Hmmmm, I thought you said you studied this!
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"They do speak of pre-67 borders as some sort of a border,"
No they speak of it as THE boarder.....Israel won't give up the land...you said they are bent on wiping Israel off the map....who exactly is getting wiped off the map?
http://www.thehypertexts.com/images/israel-palestine_map.jpg
 @B Smizzle  @last boyscout Nope, there have not been. Not a single one. They do speak of pre-67 borders as some sort of a border, but every time when it comes to actually agreen on anything less that destruction of Israel, Arabs bail out consistently.
 @Julie  @last boyscout And there have been offers on the other side....pre 67 borders!  Israel????  Israel?????  Israel????
 @Julie  @last boyscout Who created and helped Hamas in the beginning to try and take power away from the PLO and Arafat?  I thought you said you studies this!
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And we know for sure Israel's charter does not call for destruction of an independent Palestinian state, because they and the US won't even allow it to begin with!Â
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 @B Smizzle  @last boyscout Please read some of my posts here because it is very tiring to repeat myself. There were offers in 1947, 1967,1999 and 2001.
 @last boyscout I am guessing she is going to Israel.
A cease fire is good thing. But the status quo can't continue. Yes, Palestinians should stop lobbing rockets into Israel because firing rockets at someone is an act of war. So is a naval blockade. Israel has enforced a blockade of the Gaza Strip for years.
 @Max Quinn Just so you know - Naval blockade was a response to the rocket fire from Gaza into Israel and is meant to slow down Hamas's ability to import weapons, explosives and other war-enabling items.
 @Julie  @Max Quinn Yet Israel can import weapons from the US and that is okay?
 @Julie  @Max Quinn Can you show me where anyone has threatened to wipe Israel off the map?  Actual quote... Google it!  Would like to see it!  Kind of reminds me of "we don't want the warning to come in the form of a mushroom cloud"  been there, done that!
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Also Google who created Hamas as a rival to the PLO in the 80's....oops!Â
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Funny, Israel is "threatened to be wiped off the map" yet grows illegally and geographically every year!
 @B Smizzle  @Max Quinn Yep. I am also not concerned about Canada importing weapons from US and Ukraine importing weapons from Russia. I am also not concerned that Japan has nuclear capabilities because they all have proven record of being civilized and not threatening to wipe anyone of the map.
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 @Julie Then it's a failure and has served only to increase misery among Palestinian civilians.
 @Julie  @Max Quinn " Blockade is not against international law. Hamas is a terrorist organization and that is the most humane way to prevent them from becoming even more powerful."
1. Hamas was democratically elected to represent Gaza, we pushed for the vote, didn't like the outcome so we armed their rivals and sent them to fight Hamas...what would we do if a country did this to us.
2. Israels blockade of Gaza IS illegal. Â Funny we scream "UN, UN, UN" when it comes to Iran or Iraq....but Israel....no....no...http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/09/13/us-un-gaza-rights-idUSTRE78C59R20110913
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"Israel does not practice collective punishment and conducts surgical attacks against militants"
Sure they do Julie
http://www.globalresearch.ca/video-israel-bombing-residential-areas-civilian-infrastructure-in-gaza/5312203
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"Claims of Israel using phosphorus on civilians are rumors spread by Hamas targeting naive people who have religious faith in youtube videos."
Well except for the fact that Israel ADMITTED to using it, but only after denying it first until photos and videos came out...hmmmmmmm, who is naive?
https://www.commondreams.org/headline/2009/01/25-4
"The weapon is legal if used as a smokescreen in battle but it is banned from deployment in civilian areas. Pictures of the attack show Palestinian medics fleeing as blobs of burning phosphorus rain down on the compound."
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"Israel owns all the territories because no one else does"
Well except for the fact UN resolution 242 says they DON'T own it and need to pull back out....
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"Boy, I am tired of reputing every silly claim you find on the web,"
I know posting UN resolutions, weblinks to Israel admitting these things, posting pictures of maps showing the Palestinians being wiped off the map and Israel growing and growing is very silly, while you just saying "no they don't, no they don't"but posting no links isn't silly at all because you "studied" it.
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"plus I am not very hopeful you are capable of reason"
You took the words right out of my mouth Julie. Â For someone who has "studied" this, you don't even know the first thing about it!
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 @Julie  @Max Quinn And getting through to a country that collectively punishes an entire population, while surrounding them and cutting them off from the outside world is the Gazan's duty?  It takes two to tango...maybe if Israel treated their neighbors with respect instead of like the germans treated the jews in the Warsaw ghettos they might stop blowing themselves up!
 @B Smizzle I've noticed two things about you, one you are rude this is especially true when you don't have a valid point, and two you have a strong anti-Israel bias. I never said Israel is right, in fact I said both are to blame. You choose to ignore that because you are biased. I know you want us to think that you believe both are at fault, but until this recent exchange it isn't something you have ever expressed. For over a month your posts have been anti-Israel, where I've been critical of both sides and of Israel in general when it comes to US funding of them.
 @JTesla  @B "Show me where Julie said Israel is always right."
from julie
"people of Gaza elected terrorists and give them unconditional support and Israel is trying to defend itself."
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Yawn...israel right, Gaza wrong....me, both sides are at fault yet I am as extreme as julie....yawn....control your emotions to see logic and fact little man!
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 @JTesla  @B Saying both sides are at fault is not extreme....that is what you fail to realize.  you and Julie blame the Palestinians only...I blame both...that is the difference and you are too blind to see the obvious because you let emotion cloud your judgement and reasoning!
@B Smizzle Show me where Julie said Israel is always right. You made the statement, I simply turned it back on you. I've read your posts and Julie's in many articles on the subject of Israel, I can say that you are as extreme on one end as Julie is on the other. Otherwise, spare me the petty insults. If you can't handle someone poking you with your own stick then don't use the stick in the first place.
 @Julie  @Max Quinn You forgot to say Holocaust and try to paint max as antisemitic....once you do that, THEN you will have your side of the argument down!
 @Julie  @Max Quinn 97% of the land they asked for but less than 50% of the total land with 70% of the population....let me guess if this happened in the US without any input from the US you would be okay with it?
 @JTesla  @B Show me where I said Israel is always wrong, would love to see it!  I have said consistently it takes two to tango!
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See, people like you get all emotional when someone brings facts. It's okay, you will grow up some day!
 Hey, no need to go all Brownshirt on us over someone's historical analogies... Hitler did the same thing when he seized power! And because I've invoked the Fuhrer, my point is now irrefutable.
 @JTesla  How would you do 'learning from history' thing, unless you draw analogies?
@Julie @B Smizzle @Max Quinn Regarding Hitler: I read an interesting piece on CNN about âJesus wasâ¦â jokes. Jesus was Mexican because, or Irish because, or Californian because http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/11/10/my-take-what-all-those-jesus-jokes-tell-us/ The same thing could be done with Hitler. Israel is like Hitler because⦠or Hamas is like Hitler because⦠Can we just stop using Hitler, the analogy never works, unless we are talking about 1930-1945 world history of course.
 @B Smizzle  @Max Quinn Sorry, honey, but when facts are inconvenient for your believes, you can't just declare Hitler analogy a card.
 @Julie  @B Smizzle Disputing partition of the land is not the same as refusing ownership. It's actually closer to asserting ownership. I'm not defending their view, but it has to be understood for what it is.
 @B Smizzle  @studless Do not confuse the cause and effect here. Hamas has been blowing up Israelis since way before teh blocade. Just like Arabs attacked Israel way before Israel took over any disputed territories.
 @Max Quinn  @B Smizzle Yes, sure. In 1947 UN resolution declared 2 state solution that Israel accepted, but Arabs did not. Instead they lunched a war to destroy Israel and to have all teh land to themselves. Israel also offered to give up all teh disputed territories in return for peace and recognition and Arabs refused it then too. Similar proposals were on teh table in 1999 and 2001 when Arabs were offered 97% of the land they asked for, and another 3 percent in territory exchange. Sounds clear enough?
@B Smizzle "You can't get through to people like Julie, in their eyes Israel is alwasy right" You also can't get through to people like B Smizzle, in their eyes Israel is always wrong. For me, they are both wrong... so maybe there is also no getting through to me.
 @Julie  @B Smizzle Can you explain this line? "Palestinians consistently refuse the ownership starting in 1947..."
 @B Smizzle  @Max Quinn Blockade is not against international law. Hamas is a terrorist organization and that is the most humane way to prevent them from becoming even more powerful.
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Israel does not practice collective punishment and conducts surgical attacks against militants. Israel maintains civilian/militant casualty ratio much better than any country in all the military conflicts.
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Claims of Israel using phosphorus on civilians are rumors spread by Hamas targeting naive people who have religious faith in youtube videos.
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Israel owns all the territories because no one else does, so no violations there. Palestinians consistently refuse the ownership starting in 1947, then in 1967, 1999. 2001, etc.
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Boy, I am tired of reputing every silly claim you find on the web, plus I am not very hopeful you are capable of reason.... Oh. well. So Israel while under constant military attacks from Arabs build one of the best economies in the world, provides humanitarian services to people who hate Israel (I described them above, so please read) and capable to fight terrorists who hide behind women and children while maintaining amazingly low civilian casualties. No other country in the world does that.
 @B Smizzle  @Julie No small percentage of the people on this site would cheer...
 @Max Quinn  @Julie Max it is a lost cause.....sadly Julie just tosses out the Hitler card and thinks it is good enough.  Funny, anyone who Israel does not like is Hitler.....or antisemitic....can't forget to play that card too!
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Sadly she has no idea Hamas was democratically elected (thanks to Bush) in 2006 and we didn't like the outcome so we recognized, armed and funded Fatha who went to war with Hamas, which Hamas won.  What would we do if China funded, armed and recognized Romney and his supporters after the US election and actively pushed for a military overthrow of Obama????
 @studless How would you like it if before that your neighbor blocked your house from the outside world and only allowed what they deemed necessary in, while at the same time assassinating members of your family!
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And when you pointed this out the rest of the neighbors looked at your and said YOU were the aggressor?
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Kind of a shoe on the other foot sort of thing!
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Both sides are at fault!
 @Julie  @Max Quinn "Arab spring"
Kind of like this Arab spring....history is repeating itself!
http://www.wisegeek.com/what-was-operation-ajax.htm
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"Â am actually not even Jewish, but few years ago I got curious and studied the whole conflict and was amazed how unfair the whole world is to Israel and how Israel is held to some astronomical standards"
Yeah like not blockading your neighbors (against international law)
Collectively punishing a population (against international law)
Using white phosphorous on civilians (against international law)
Building on land that they don't own (against international law)
Boarding a ship in international waters and killing 7 people on board (against international law....when they do it in Somalia they are called Pirates but not Israel....no, no)
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Which country has violated more UN resolutions than any other nation on earth....but yeah, they are held to a higher standard....GO BACK AND STUDY AGAIN....you get an F!
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/11/israel-has-violated-hundreds-of-un-resolutions.html
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That said please tell us what astronomical standards is Israel held up to that no one else is.....I would like to know!
 @B Smizzle But how would you like it if your next door neighbor started tossing handgrenades in your backyard and when you did it back your other neighbors all got angry with you instead of the antagonist.Â
 @B Smizzle  @Max Quinn So you can not get through to Julie, but getting through to people who teach their kids to blow themselves up is Israel's duty. Hmmm....
 @Max Quinn  @Julie You can't get through to people like Julie, in their eyes Israel is alwasy right no matter how many international laws they break!  To them Israel can do no wrong and the bully is always the victim and can never, ever do any wrong.  People like you and me understand it takes two to tango!  Both sides are at fault!
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Funny too because if a  kid kicked her dog 100 times and on the 101st kick the kid got bit would she blame the dog as the attacker?  Doubtful!
@Julie
Fine, I'll address it: "The commonality between Hitler, Arab spring and terrorists is that a nationalistic group imposing it's ways of life on a much broader group via extreme violence."
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The Arab Spring was an collection of popular uprisings against dictatorial governments. Hitler first staged a failed coup against a democratic government, then perverted the democratic process through thuggery to install himself as dictator. "Terrorist" is too general a word to use in this context. Terrorist are not always nationalistic and the term can be used against anyone you don't like be it Hamas, the IRA, the African National Congress, or, as some people do on this site, unions and the Occupy movement.
 @Max Quinn Saying that something is foolish without addressing it is either foolish, or disrespectful, but I'll comment on it anyway. The commonality between Hitler, Arab spring and terrorists is that a nationalistic group imposing it's ways of life on a much broader group via extreme violence.
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Now circular reasoning is also foolish, so lets try this again:
Israel tried every possible way to please Arabs without significantly compromising its security, but only gets terrorism in return. What else is there to do? Hypothetical 'there must be another solution' is not a solution.
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Also, nobody cripples Hamas's ability to govern - that's really silly. If anything the whole world is trying to help. Israel does not block any meaningful import into Gaza - all they do is scan for weapons.
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There are many silly people in the world who throw uninformed or unreasonable statements like 'there must be a better option', but the reality is that people are getting blown up and only when Israel retaliates, that's when everyone starts looking for solution.
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I am actually not even Jewish, but few years ago I got curious and studied the whole conflict and was amazed how unfair the whole world is to Israel and how Israel is held to some astronomical standards that no other country in the world is held against, and yet they survive and prosper.
 @Julie Lumping Hitler, the Arab Spring, and terrorists all into one category is foolish, so I won't address it.
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Gaza: Israel pulls out because protecting the land of a handful of settlers is not worth the effort. Smart thinking. Freezing the assets of the Palestinian Authority and imposing a blockade essentially traps 1.8 million people in pen - essentially a breeding ground for more militants.
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Golan: Hezbollah is no sweetheart. Israel has a right to defend itself from cross-border raids. But to launch an intense bombing campaign against a sovereign nation did nothing but ensure that Hezbollah would always have a home there.
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Autonomy: This is where I think the big mistake was made. The Palestinians elected Hamas because they were tired of Fatah's corruption. Israel and the international community cripples Hamas's ability to govern - thus freeing Hamas from the responsibility of governing. If Hamas had had the chance to govern the Palestinians, then one of two things would have happened. 1) They would have succeeded and everyone would be better off (not likely), or 2) they would have failed and lost all credibility in the eyes of the Palestinians (more likely). But, since militarism is always the first option on both sides, Hamas gets away with doing nothing but carrying on a fruitless war.
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My point isn't that Israel is to blame. My point is that the present course leads nowhere and Israel, as the more powerful party in the dispute, has more leverage in moving it towards a permanent (and humane) solution.
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 @Max Quinn Another interesting observation:
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Israel to Palestinians:
Water
Electricity
Free medical in Israeli hospitals
Equal opportunity to enroll into Israeli universities
Gas masks during the first golf war
Impairing construction of Jewish homes on lands that belong to Israel
Territorial concessions
Governing assistance (providing services that Palestinians can not build themselves, like tax collections, etc)
The list can go on and on.
Even now while at war, Israel sends dozens of trucks with humanitarian aid to Gaza
Not to mention that Israel is almost always the first responder to any disaster anywhere in the world, always looking to help, to build friendships, etc.
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Palestinians to Israel:
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Palestinians to the world:
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Palestinians to themselves:
???
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 @Max Quinn Can you define 'have to be non-military options'? There is actually very little difference between trying to reason with Hitler, the mob in Tahrir square, the terrorists, etc. But in spite of that, Israel has been trying over and over again and fails every time. Pull out from Gaza and here we have rockets flying. Pull out from Golan and we get another war in Lebanon. Israel gives Palestinians autonomy after the Clinton's Oslo accord and we had an intifada (aka Oslo war) with thousands killed on both sides. Israel gives Egypt Sinai and it worked well while Mubarak was in power, but now they shoot rockets from Sinai, blow up gas pipeline, not to mention continues infiltration of terrorists from Sinai and supplying Gaza with weapons via Sinai. What other options you got?
 @Julie And that's the mentality that will guarantee that this will go on forever. There have to be non-military options.
 @Max Quinn Did not work perfectly, but it definitely slowed them down. Multiple shipments of weapons were intercepted and we can only guess how many were deterred. Actually the only other option is a ground invasion and occupation.
@Max Quinn @Julie And lobbing rockets onto the innocent civilians in Israel has caused them misery as well.Â