Nation pauses to remember 9/11 terror attacks
NEW YORK (AP) — Americans paused again Tuesday to mark the 11th anniversary of the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks with familiar ceremony, but also a sense that it's time to move forward after a decade of remembrance.
As in past years, thousands were expected to gather at the World Trade Center site in New York, the Pentagon and Shanksville, Pa., to read the names of nearly 3,000 victims killed in the worst terror attack in U.S. history. President Barack Obama was to attend the Pentagon memorial, and Vice President Joe Biden was to speak in Pennsylvania.
But many felt that last year's 10th anniversary was an emotional turning point for public mourning of the attacks. For the first time, elected officials weren't speaking at the ceremony, which often allowed them a solemn turn in the spotlight, but raised questions about the public and private Sept. 11.
"I feel much more relaxed" this year, said Jane Pollicino, who came to ground zero Tuesday morning to remember her husband, who was killed at the trade center. "After the ninth anniversary, that next day, you started building up to the 10th year. This feels a lot different, in that regard. It's another anniversary that we can commemorate in a calmer way, without that 10-year pressure."
As bagpipes played at the year-old Sept. 11 memorial in New York, family clutching balloons, flowers and photos of their loved ones bowed their heads in silence at 8:46 a.m., the moment that the first hijacked jetliner crashed into the trade center's north tower. President Barack Obama and first lady Michelle Obama observed the moment in a ceremony on the White House's south lawn. Victims' families in New York began the solemn, familiar ritual of tearfully reading the names of nearly 3,000 killed, with personal messages to their lost loved ones.
"Rick, can you hear your name as the roll is called again? On this sacred ground where your dust settled?" said Richard Blood, whose son, Richard Middleton Blood, Jr., died in the trade center's south tower. "If only those who hear your name could know what a loving son and beautiful person you grew to be. I love you, son, and miss you terribly."
Thousands had attended the ceremony in New York in previous years, including last year's milestone 10th anniversary. Fewer than 500 family members had gathered by Tuesday morning, reading their loved ones' names on the Sept. 11 memorial, built over the twin towers' footprints.
Commuters rushed out of the subway and fewer police barricades were in place than in past years in the lower Manhattan neighborhood surrounding ground zero.
Families had a mixed reaction to the changing ceremony, which kept politicians away from the microphone in New York for the first time.
Charles G. Wolf, whose wife, Katherine, was killed at the trade center, said: "We've gone past that deep, collective public grief" and said it was appropriate that politicians no longer speak.
But Pollicino said it's important that politicians still attend the ceremony.
"There's something missing if they're not here at all," she said. "Now, all of a sudden, it's 'for the families.' This happened to our country — it didn't happen only to me."
And Joe Torres, who put in 16-hour days in the "pit" in the days after the attacks, cleaning up tons of debris, said another year has changed nothing for him.
"The 11th year, for me, it's the same as if it happened yesterday. It could be 50 years from now, and to me, it'll be just as important as year one, or year five or year ten."
Political leaders still are welcome to attend the ground zero ceremony, and they are expected at the other commemorations, as well.
The Obamas plan to attend the Pentagon ceremony and visit wounded soldiers at Walter Reed Army Medical Center. The U.S. terror attacks were followed by wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, where the U.S. military death toll years ago surpassed the 9/11 victim count. At least 1,987 U.S. troops have died in Afghanistan and 4,475 in Iraq, according to the Pentagon.
Biden and Secretary of the Interior Ken Salazar are expected to speak at the Flight 93 National Memorial near Shanksville, at the site where the hijacked United Airlines plane went down.
Officeholders from the mayor to presidents have been heard at the New York ceremony, reading texts ranging from parts of the Declaration of Independence and the Gettysburg Address to poems by John Donne and Langston Hughes.
For former New York Gov. George Pataki, this year's change ends a 10-year experience that was deeply personal, even as it reflected his political role. He was governor at the time of the attacks.
"As the names are read out, I just listen and have great memories of people who I knew very well who were on that list of names. It was very emotional." But the former governor supports the decision not to have government figures speak.
"It's time to take the next step, which is simply to continue to pay tribute," Pataki said.
The National Sept. 11 Memorial and Museum — led by Mayor Michael Bloomberg as its board chairman — announced in July that this year's ceremony would include the words of family members, hoping to remember the dead and honor families "in a way free of politics" in an election year, memorial President Joe Daniels said.
But others said keeping politicians off the rostrum smacked of ... politics. And several said they were unwilling to let go.
"Coming here, it's like ripping off a Band-Aid," said Yasmin Leon, whose sister was killed at the trade center. "You rip it off and the wound is opened again. But you keep coming back anyway."
Leon said there was a sense of closure this year because last year, the Sept. 11 memorial — twin reflecting pools surrounded by victims' names — opened to the public. "This year, we're just here to reflect," she said.
The Sept. 11 museum was initially to open this year, but is on hold for at least another year after a monthslong dispute over financing between the foundation and the government agency that owns the site. Late Monday, Bloomberg and New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo announced an agreement that paves the way for finishing the $700 million-plus project "as soon as practicable."
Before the deal, Cuomo, a Democrat, and New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie, a Republican, had called on federal officials to give the memorial a financial and technical hand. Some victims' relatives saw the no-politicians anniversary ceremony as retaliation.
"Banning the governors of New York and New Jersey from speaking is the ultimate political decision," said one relatives' group, led by retired Deputy Fire Chief Jim Riches. His firefighter son and namesake was killed responding to the burning World Trade Center.
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Associated Press writers Verena Dobnik and Alex Katz contributed to this report.
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Follow Jennifer Peltz at http://twitter.com/jennpeltz
Copyright 2012 The Associated Press.
I challenge anyone here to go to youtube and watch a few videos of professional highrise casino demolitions(there are lots of em')Â note how the buildings fall perfectly downward onto thier own footprints. Then watch the videos of the world trade center and building 7... Wow, looks like a perfect proffesional demolition, EXACTLY how it looks when it is done INTENTIONALLY.
@undertone Been there, done that, listened to the architect of the towers and the FDNY explain what happened. I take the word of the builder and the FDNY over some anonymous guy who watched YouTube videos any day, and time, ever. Watching videos doesn't make us experts.
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@wahoo 4 engines is meaningless. A B-17 had four engines but that doesn't make it bigger than a modern jetliner. Look up the GROSS WEIGHTS of these aircraft which are freely available to people who are interested in facts.
 @undertone While you're visiting youtube, I challenge you to watch Nova's progam explaining how two ariplanes flying into the towers made them fall: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPqxJpykW00.Â
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@wahoo 707s and 757/767-class jetliners have radically different weights and corresponding inertia values. The sources of that 707/757 comparison want you to believe the two airplanes have similar mass, payload etc. That's false.
 @wahoo  @Max Technically, the buildings did withstand the collisions with the 767. The jet fuel did burn off after a few minutes. But, it also ignited other material, mostly paper, to burn. The collisions knocked out windows and thus, each building became a furnace.
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The steel beams that supported each tower ran up the exterior of the building and were insulated with spray-on foam. The collisions remove the foam. The steel beams were then directly exposed to the fires and started to melt. After an hour or so, the links between the vertical beams and the floors gave way, and the buildings collapsed.
 How did they get 100's of workers into the builds to weaken the structure, set all the explosives, and set up the miles of detonation cord needed to make the perfect controlled implosion without anyone noticing what they were doing, on multiple building no less and no one has come forward to claim that they headed up this massive project?? I suppose the crews ran into the buildings after the planes hit and set all that up in a couple hours. You really need to get some help!!@undertone
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 @Max Quinn  @wahoo The 40 second figure came from a FEMA report - so that discounts it. Estimates I've found put the collapse times for the buildings from 14 - 28 seconds depending on when you start the countdown and when you call it done. None of this supports your bomb theories.
 @B Smizzle  @wahoo Take your pick:http://www.pbs.org/newshour/multimedia/meyerowitz/index.html
 @Max Quinn  @wahoo "(in fact some steel beams remained upright, though flexed outward)"
Can you post photos to support this theory? Â Every picture I have seen is with everything in a nice neat pile.
 @Max Quinn  @wahoo Yeah it didn't!
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ml_n5gJgQ_U
 @wahoo  @Max If you're talking Building 7, it took 40 seconds to fall. As for the other two, they did not fall in 10-20 seconds, the remains were not all pulverized (in fact some steel beams remained upright, though flexed outward). As they began collapsing the outer beams tore away from the structure and the resulting load was too heavy for each floor to support for more than a span of milliseconds.
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Your theory still makes no sense. Hope is not a strategy.
Die, not deny. He has a body full of flak but his buddies were blown completely apart.
@wahoo Wow, and nobody saw ANYTHING funny with all of those demolition charges. It's such a radically-improbable likelihood, what with FDNY and the police and the mayor and all in on it, that it MUST be true.
@wahoo For the same reason that a person I know didn't deny when a grenade took out his PLTCO, his best friend and a couple of other people without killing him. Stranger things have happened. I highly suspect you got your 10-20 second information from some third or fourth hand Internet source.
@wahoo@Max@Max
 But once the top floors way two things happened: 1) the tops of vertical exterior beams bent outwards and stressed the lower portions of the beams, and 2) the top floors obeyed gravity, landed on the lower floors, which being overburdened gave way, and so forth at an accelerating rate until they hit the ground.
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Brilliant scheme, by the way, over the course of months, place explosives around the building and hope, hope, hope that nobody finds one of them beforehand. Sheer brilliance.
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 @wahoo  @Max No it's not like that. The impact with the planes took of the insulation, not the jet fuel. The jet fuel ignited fires inside the buildings which then acted on the steel beams. Pretty straightforward.
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So, how about you step up a but here and explain how the bad guys smuggled in enough explosives in just the right locations so that they could demolish the buildings. While you're at it, explain why they waited seven hours to take down Building 7.Â
 @wahoo The steal beams supporting the building ran throughout the structure, not "only on top." The other buildings sustained similar ground-level damage as did Building 7 - but they weren't nearly as tall. The ground-level structures did not have to support the same weight.
 @wahoo  @Rugrat It fell for the same reason that the other two towers fell. The collapse of those two towers damaged the structure of Building 7 and started fires that burned for over 6 hours and weakened the building's poorly insulated steel beams. At 5:21 PM, the structure gave way and the building fell.
 @undertone Actually, I have watched some of those demolitions on TV, and I watched the towers come down.  They did NOT look identical. Â
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Controlled implosions always show a sequence of detonations around the base of the building designed to collapse the top of the building in place. Â When I watched the towers go down, they started from the stop and pancaked. Â
 @undertone You know what else?  Every single day I set my alarm clock.  Every day it goes off, and I get up.  Not long thereafter, the sun rises. Â
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Coincidence? Â I don't think so. Â You'd better hope I remember to set my alarm tomorrow.
 @Festivus  @undertone Dang right. I might be stuck at work until your alarm goes off if no one else wakes up to relieve me from the shift.
Man, we sure have gone downhill as a nation since the saudi terrorists attacked us. Somehow we blamed Iraq for 9/11 and attacked their country, but they didn't do anything to us. And we are still in Afghanistan losing a war to people that hate us and want nothing but for us to leave. Then we funded al-quaeda (aka rebels) in Libya, Egypt, Tunisia, and now Syria and completely dismantling the middle east. This year a judge also blamed Iran for 9/11 and fined them billions of dollars, lol.Â
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One the other hand food prices are soaring, gas prices are very high due to low numbers of refineries, and we just experienced a global bank bailout (aka recession), many people are unemployed (larger numbers than reported in the media). Our properties are worthless and our civil liberties have been taken away from us. Thought police are patrolling facebook and our government just bought 1.4 billion rounds of ammunition. Be prepared for the future cuz its going to be a dark one...
I encourage everyone to watch this!Â
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COsKfM_LDUc
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Sad too that we have come full circle....train and arm AQ in the 80's to fight the Russians, attack AQ after 9/11 because they are our enemy, train, arm and support AQ to overthrow Assahd in Syria.....it is madness!
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Today is an annaversary of a black spot on the history of America, The day the government rolled out it's pre-planned war on our freedoms. liberty,rights, dignity, and privacy. The un-"patriot act" NDAA , indefinate detention, wiretapping, cell phone tracking, the TSA brownshirts,GPS tracking, a militarized police state, DHS and that frankenstien woman that would love to have a checkpoint on every corner with a government sanctioned molester there to search your intimates. ETC. ETC, ETCÂ the list goes on and on... they have been so very buisy destroying this country.
 @undertone "Very busy destroying this country"
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Yeah, 'cause...uh... things are so much worse now.Â
@Dienekes4160  Well yes they are much worse now. These are just a few of the things that bother me and anyone else paying attention. Also have you been to the airport and has TSA feel you up lately....how many terrorists have they caught....all of ZERO but let me guess, YOU actually believe they are keeping us safer!
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Free speech alive and well....NOT! Keep in mind the FBI and Police say he is not arrested or charged with a crime....
http://www.businessinsider.com/former-marine-brandon-raub-is-being-held-in-a-psychiatric-ward-over-facebook-posts-about-911-2012-8
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Spy Agency Activities Violated Fourth Amendment Rights, Letter Discloses. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444097904577539413137490028.html
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Police Violated Fourth Amendment Rights With GPS Tracking of Jeep, Court Says
http://www.insideline.com/jeep/grand-cherokee/police-violated-fourth-amendment-rights-with-gps-tracking-of-jeep-court-says.html
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But then again you probably don't even know what the Fourth Amendment is or even care about it....keep me safe....deee, derp, de, derp
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TSA missed loaded gun (but they won't miss a chance to feel you up)
http://beforeitsnews.com/tsa-controversy/2012/07/tsa-misses-gun-and-rounds-twice-2364920.html
TSA misses another loaded gun
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/ondeadline/post/2011/10/tsa-misses-loaded-gun-in-bag-at-lax/1
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Loaded gun gets past TSA again
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/loaded-gun-slips-past-tsa-screeners/story?id=12412458
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TSA kicks woman off flight for bad attitude
http://www.infowars.com/tsa-kicks-woman-off-flight-for-bad-attitude/
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TSA steals
http://reason.com/blog/2012/07/10/tsa-agents-at-louisville-airport-steal-d
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http://travel.usatoday.com/flights/post/2012/04/tsa-employee-indicted-for-stealings-ipads/674767/1
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http://online.wsj.com/article/AP9e3edbb58b4148f1bcf4de10d01479c1.html
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Under U.S. Law Torture is Always Illegal
http://www.counterpunch.org/2008/05/06/under-u-s-law-torture-is-always-illegal/
From the article one of my favorite John Yoo quotes " In a debate with Notre Dame Professor Doug Cassell, Yoo said there is no treaty that prohibits the President from torturing someone by crushing the testicles of the personâs child. In Yooâs view, it depends on the Presidentâs motive, notwithstanding the absolute prohibition against torture in all circumstances."
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 @Playanekes  @B Must suck that I put you down so bad Dinky that you had to change your log on to attack me again...that's okay let me take you down point by point yet again!
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"Troofer Phase 4 bogus personal attacks"
What bogus personal attacks have I had?
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"For the record, I've been fondled by, inspected by, instructed by and HATE TSA."
Hmmm, yet you said things have not gotten worse since 9/11, I showed you an example the TSA, then you agree with it....so guess what HOLMES (wow I must have pushed a button) you do agree that things are worse! Â You make no sense at all!
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"A similar logical fallacy is to assume that a business that loses money has no customers. Rockwood Fred Meyer had lots of customers but it couldn't remain profitable largely because of theft"
I would need to see data to back this up, or did you just pick it up by talking to employees at the store?  Do you know how capitalism works?
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"Bally's, across the street from the MKC, had customers too but it also went under."
Do you know why it closed though....not enough customers to cover the cost so it was closed! Â It is a very simple concept!
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That said, if the casino is a money losing venture it will close....just like Bally's! Â You don't want it and say it will lose money so guess what, either way in your mind, you win!Â
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"Your personal attacks aren't relevant to anything."
What personal attacks?
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"Unlike you, I'd be proud to wear a US flag on my shirt."
Hey thanks for not personally attacking me!
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@B Smizzle You LOST, HOLMES because you presumed to tell another person what they think and presumed your opponent didn't have direct experience with TSA. You FAILED because you presume to suggest I don't agree with you on certain points--such as TSA--before launching into your Troofer Phase 4 bogus personal attacks. For the record, I've been fondled by, inspected by, instructed by and HATE TSA. But, don't let that stop you. A similar logical fallacy is to assume that a business that loses money has no customers. Rockwood Fred Meyer had lots of customers but it couldn't remain profitable largely because of theft. Bally's, across the street from the MKC, had customers too but it also went under. Glad I could help you. Your personal attacks aren't relevant to anything. I have no yellow ribbon magnet because they're made in China and, yes... Unlike you, I'd be proud to wear a US flag on my shirt.
@Dienekes "You lost it there, Holmes. I'm a flight instructor. I am REQUIRED to take TSA safety awareness training every year, REQUIRED to keep files on my students and if I fail an inspection they can take my livelihood and fine me $80,000."
How did I lose....how many terrorists has TSA caught? ZERO....what does your safety awarness training have to do with TSA catching no terrorists?
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"Next time you pop your jaw off, you should ASK my opinion before ASSUMING it."
So you actually made my point, you think the next attack (snicker) will happen BEFORE the TSA screening.....meaning TSA IS NOT keeping us any safer! Use your noodle for something other than holding your pillow down! You made my argument for me....TSA is not keeping us safer. Notice too you said nothing about all the loaded guns that made it through TSA screening....but they did catch that lady with breast milk so hey, score one for the good guys! So one would ask you not to make my point for me then tell me to quit "popping" off my jaw....
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"All your TSA links were a wasted effort"
I know they are wasted because you are too dim whitted and lazy to actually look at them. I mean I realize showing you links proving loaded guns have made it through TSA, but not liquids of more than 5oz. does not prove the TSA is not keeping us safe.  I understand that showing the TSA fails to find over 80% of items like guns and bombs during routine testing does not prove they don't know who to do what they are supposedly hired to to....keep us safe! Nope, I wear an american flag on my shirt, have a a bumper sticker that says "support the troops" and just know that TSA keeps me safe and is doing a fine job......
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This coming from a guy who says a casino in wood village will lose money, but said casino (with no customers because they are losing money) will cause crime and traffic problems. How is that going to happen exactly?
 @B Smizzle "@Dienekes4160  Also have you been to the airport and has TSA feel you up lately....how many terrorists have they caught....all of ZERO but let me guess,
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You lost it there, Holmes. I'm a flight instructor. I am REQUIRED to take TSA safety awareness training every year, REQUIRED to keep files on my students and if I fail an inspection they can take my livelihood and fine me $80,000.
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"YOU actually believe they are keeping us safer!""
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If you read any of my archived posts you'll understand that I believe the next aviation terror attack will happen in the TSA line, 20 or 30 steps from the unsecured entry to the airport. Why smuggle a bomb onto a plane to try to kill a hundred people when you can set off a suicide vest in a crowded TSA line and kill several planeloads. Simultaneously, at airports across America. That's my prediction.  Next time you pop your jaw off, you should ASK my opinion before ASSUMING it.
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All your TSA links were a wasted effort.  Meanwhile, I drove by Tule Lake the other day. Remember internment camps? Remember J Edgar Hoover, and the communist blacklist? My neighborhood, just up the road from the proposed casino site, has a white-only clause in the original land deed.
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Makes you wonder how we survived Abraham Lincoln suspending Habeus Corpus and destroying pro-southern presses, such as the one in Corvallis.
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Perspective. I think that I would rather be a Cherokee or a Nez Pierce or Chinese immigrant or a black leader now than at any other time in history.
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Indeed, though:Â We should abolish the TSA immediately. Right Now. Other than that, our freedoms are just fine because the 2nd Amendment will be with us in principle even if some fool tries to repeal it.
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@Dienekes4160 There has to be tv "programmed" sheeple like you for the fascism to take hold... so you are doing a great job in that respect.
 @undertone  @Dienekes4160 And all it takes is a head lodged firmly in your backside to believe any ol' conspiracy theory that comes along because you like it. Â
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Would I rather be programmed or cranially-rectally inverted? Â Tough call.
 @Dienekes4160  @undertone Does a words etymology matter? You seem to swallow the propaganda push the government likes its the absolutely truth on the matter. Good to know the US Government has never lied to anyone, let alone its own citizens.Â
 @undertone  @Dienekes4160 Ah, "sheeple."Â
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Either you came up with that word yourself or you're regurgitating somebody else's words. And if you're regurgitating terminology somebody else fed you, what does that make you? Which is it? You coined the word "sheeple" or you picked it up from somebody who "programmed" you to use that language in debate.Â
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The word "sheeple" is an absolute dead giveaway that you can't think for yourself.
@Dienekes4160 @undertone You don't think things are worse? You don't see more people hungry and able to make ends meet?
 @portlandborn83  @Dienekes4160  @undertone Those could be blamed on unfettered immigration, the financial industry collapse, the dot com bubble collapse, the housing bubble and subsequent collapse, the fact that we're shipping manufacturing jobs to China, the fact that gasoline is at least twice as expensive as it was then. TSA and DHS are, I agree, exceeding the envelope as are local and state law enforcement agencies at places like Burning Man (the college girl who just started making out with you is actually a cop, trying to get you to offer to get her high. Which is trafficking.) But, the next time you see comments about the TSA or airport screening being abolished, watch how many comments come from people who "feel safer" knowing that it's going on?
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We the People are responsible for all of our lost freedoms. Don't believe me? Ready? Watch:  We should IMMEDIATELY abolish the self-serve gas ban in Oregon.
9/11 was the biggest fraud of all time.
 @molotovmouse Another OJ juror speaks.
 @Dienekes4160 How do you explain building 7? It had one floor on fire. Fire does not cause entire buildings to collapse into dust, as the WTC did.
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High-rise buildings (hotels etc) all around the world have have multiple floors on fire, in some cases for days and the building doesn't collapse.
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I want your take on this because clearly you are the purveyor of knowledge.
 @molotovmouse No, unlike you I don't claim to be a demolitions expert.
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But, I'm sure you've got sources on the interwebs willing to do all the explaining for you. I'll trust the FDNY because No Troofers Were Harmed Trying to Rescue People from the WTC. Just the FDNY, but, Troofers are happy to sweep them into the conspiracy or call them "sheeple" too.
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I want to see a 9/11 Truther walk into a FDNY firehouse and tell them that they're part of a government coverup. Until then... meh. Words are cheap.
@Festivus @molotovmouse @Dienekes4160 Exactly. The architects and fire investigators can agree on something but unless it's what some Troofer says about it, it's not credible. These are the same people who deride you for believing "the media." I'm predicting the amount of high school dropouts and chronic stoners in the Troofer movement exceeds that of most rock concerts.
@molotovmouse @Dienekes4160 I'm not a fire inspector, and neither are you, so, I'll defer to the FDNY and conclude that get all your information from source on the Internet who wasn't actually there either. Have fun with that, Troofer.
@Festivus "Do you peole really have such a complete and utter lack of engineering and scientifc method that I have to say this out loud?"
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Well instead of all of us scientific types (Mechanical Engineer here) trying to explain out points when we really don't build buildings, why don't we ask Frank DeMartini (no lie the guys name) who was the WTC Construction and Project Manager. I would think he would have a good idea of what these building can handle
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fQlC2AIWrY
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Things that make you go HMMMMM.....sadly he died on 9/11 in the north tower! Does that prove demolition....no....but that with the many, many, many fire fighters talking about secondary and tertiary explosions (there are tons of news clips of them on that day talking about it) does make one stop for a minute and think!
@Dienekes "ONe of my students is a former fire marshal and fire inspector for a large local community. It's interesting how his discussion and yours differ"
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Yup, fire totally brings a building down.....I mean look at this fire in China vs B7 and tell me which one fire (if it could) would bring a building down. Also if fire brings a building down why do they do controlled demolitions? Why not just set a fire?
China
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/10/world/asia/10beijing.html?_r=1
B7
http://images.google.com/imgres?q=Building+7&num=10&hl=en&biw=1311&bih=547&tbm=isch&tbnid=3UPrfvzoDgPF1M:&imgrefurl=http://willyloman.wordpress.com/2011/02/25/new-911-memorial-timeline-lies-about-building-7/&docid=oyJBEGlDsoQ49M&imgurl=http://willyloman.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/building7-fires-4.jpg&w=440&h=354&ei=G6BPUObJDIWw0QH63YGADw&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=956&vpy=228&dur=52&hovh=201&hovw=250&tx=136&ty=221&sig=111964178030226218879&page=5&tbnh=159&tbnw=206&start=68&ndsp=15&ved=1t:429,r:9,s:68,i:350
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"My guess is that Building 7 fell for the reasons the vast majority of fire investigators seem to be saying it fell"
And what reason did the vast majority of fire investigators say it fell exactly because NIST still can't figure it out!
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"Waiting. Do state your credentials or site sources. "
This coming from a guy who's sources are "I talked to a lot of people in NY that day" and "one of my students is a former fire marshal"Â Should we believe that or NIST who, to this day, still can't explain what happened!
 @Festivus "structural compromises" ???
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Building 7 had (1) one floor on fire out of 47. The Chinese building is completely toast, yet it still stands.
 @molotovmouse No, I'm just saying the two buildings may not have been built the same.  It's apples and oranges unless they followed the same design and used the same materials and workmanship, and suffered the same structural compromises from the two independent events.
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In other words, there are too many uncontrolled variables between the two circumstances to draw any meaningful conclusions, unless perhaps you're an architectural expert who has studied both situations in great depth.
 @Festivus Do you really think the Chinese lack engineering knowhow to construct a high-rise building?
 @molotovmouse  @Dienekes4160 I missed the part where we were talking about Building 7, my bad.
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Rest of the argument still stands. Â Two buildings constructed 12,000 miles apart with nothing in common other than their height make for a poor argument under ANY circumstances.
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Do you people really have such a complete and utter lack of engineering and the scientific method that I have to say this out loud?
 @Festivus  @Dienekes4160 Building 7 was never hit by a plane so there goes your jet fuel argument. As for the construction, I don't know. If its not build from the same construction as the WTC then that says even more considering the entire thing went up in flames and is still standing.
 @molotovmouse  @Dienekes4160 Is that building of the same construction as the WTC?  Did its fire originate from the same source?  Was there an entire plane worth of jet fuel sprayed over several floors and then ignited?  Did it have significant components of its structural integrity compromised by collision with a multi-ton jetliner? Â
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Some of us have engineering and science degrees - and it takes a little more than "See, this other building didn't collapse" to convince us that a story implies anything other than human gullibility.
 @Dienekes4160 http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/shanghai-high-rise-apartment-fire-death-toll-claims-42/story-e6frf7lf-1225954163676
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It may be toast, but it's still standing.
 @Dienekes4160 You can't explain it eh? Shocking.
 @molotovmouse "Fire does not cause entire buildings to collapse into dust, as the WTC did."
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One of my students is a former fire marshal and fire inspector for a large local community. It's interesting how his discussion and yours differ. Let me ask you:
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Who gave you your information about Building 7? Or, are you some sort of fire investigator yourself?Â
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My guess is that Building 7 fell for the reasons the vast majority of fire investigators seem to be saying it fell, but, "I want your take on this because clearly you are the purveyor of knowledge."
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Waiting. Do state your credentials or site sources.Â
 @Dienekes4160  @molotovmouse WTH is that supposed to mean?Â
@Dienekes4160 @molotovmouse Another tv programmed "consumer"Â attacks an awake and aware American.
 @B Smizzle  @Dienekes4160Â
"PROOF 'PLANE' WAS HOLOGRAM THAT HIT 9/11"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ek-Q0T9wK2g
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On the internet = Must be True.  I don't have a "Support the Troops" sticker because they're made in China. A simple yellow ribbon around our walnut tree--plus care packages to the Sandbox--were sufficient to show my loyalty to the troops. But, thanks for assuming.Â
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You haven't done any research yourself, so, I'm not sure why you're speaking on behalf of those who have. Lastly, it's not that I haven't READ your sources or the ones that spawned them. I just don't BELIEVE them because they're full of holes. Aw, screw it. Obviously it was a hologram and if you don't believe it you're a government shill, etc.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ek-Q0T9wK2g
@B Smizzle "you didn't even look it up". Really? Is that what your Cheerios spy ring told you? You're checking up on people now?
@B Smizzle Don't ever call me your friend. Shouldn't you be occupying Chapman Park or something?
@Dienekes4160 Laughable....You talk about holographic planes and people, that is not a strawman but asking you to read a declassified government document that spells out terror attacks by the US on US soil to be blamed on Cuba to start a war IS a strawman!
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Explain?
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You didn't even look it up and that is part of the problem with this discussion...people like you already know everything because you saw it on the news. People who have done extensive research on it and know about things about declassified gvt. plans for a false flag to launch a war are idiots!
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Got it....you're right.....USA....USA....USA...where can I get my "I support the troops" sticker that was made in China to show my patriotisim?
@Dienekes4160 "Assahad? DId he have something to do with 9/11""
Again my slow friend has failed to make the connection...you tried to imply the media would not lie or hide facts from the public. I just proved that "liberal" CNN won't even air their own special because it will put a pro US dictator who is doing the exact same thing to his people as Assahd, in a horrible light! Why do we expose (lie) about Syria yet not Bahrain? Just showing you how the media decides what is and is not news.....
"Suddenly, am I more awake and aware then myself? Am I suddenly as awake and aware as you?""
No, never said that. Just posted some facts that you seem not to like because it shatters your beloved version of reality. It makes you uncomfortable so instead of replying with facts, you reply wiht emotions.....just like with the casino. Did I ever say the government was behind 9/11....NOPE! Did I believe we need another investigation because the heads of the 9/11 comission said we were lied too....yes!
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Watch this movie and honestly tell me, do you think we need another investigation?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COsKfM_LDUc
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"Naturally the common people don't want war: Neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, IT IS THE LEADERS of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is TELL THEM THEY ARE BEING ATTACKED, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. IT WORKS THE SAME IN ANY COUNTRY."
Hmmmm does this sound familiar to you?????
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 @B Smizzle "What does Operation Northwoods sound like to you?"
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A strawman argument that has nothing to do with 9/11. Next, please.
 @B Smizzle Assahd? Did he have something to do with 9/11 or are you putting out a strawman argument and accusing me of not knowing anything about something Not Even Related to the Actual Story?
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What happens if I agree with you? Suddenly, am I more awake and aware then myself? Am I suddenly as awake and aware as you? Okay.
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I agree with the story. I'm awake and aware now too. Also, TROOFERS GET THEIR INFORMATION OFF OF THE INTERNET JUST LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE.
 @Servalowner  @undertone  @molotovmouseÂ
Well, I have a couple of pounds of thermite in my shed and I've used lots of it before. So I don't need somebody telling me how thermite works, or calling me a "shill" when I explain how the thermite theory fails.
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Also, I'm a pilot so I don't need some dropout telling me that a 757 was "similar in inertia" to a 707. And I know how an airplane crashes so I don't need a lecture on the Pennsylvania crash either. I also know that plain-white business jets come into the airport every day, and just because you can't read the tail numbers doesn't mean they're secret shadow-government CIA aircraft. Let alone A-10 Thunderbolts, which was another desperate Troofer theory right up there with holograms, mass hallucinations and actors impersonating calls to loved ones. Heard them all.
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I've spoken to lots of people who were in NYC when it happened, and none of them dispute the conventional theories.
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So unless you have something that isn't terminally freakin' ridiculous, and some sort of credential to demonstrate that you're not a total sucker for Alex Jones advertisers, I'm glad I could help you.
@Dienekes    Yeah the news never censors anything....not even their own reporting of US lead dictators doing what we say Assahd is doing in Syria
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/04/cnn-international-documentary-bahrain-arab-spring-repression
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Looks like some of us are more awake and aware than others! Also google Operation Mockingbird....or better yet Operation Northwoods. What does Operation Northwoods sound like to you?
 @Dienekes4160  @undertone  @molotovmouse You make such valid points.  I'm sure that will show them all that *you* know what you're talking about.Â
 @undertone  @Dienekes4160  @molotovmouse LOL!
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You guys were there, I'm sure. You didn't read about all of this stuff on the internet, or from people who were selling ads or books. None of the information presented to you ever had commercial interests or publishing and marketing teams behind them.
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Meanwhile, FOX, MSNBC, CNN, BBC, Al Jazeera, ABC...they're all part of the conspiracy to program us. They're ALL in on it. You're not bat-squat paranoid reading a handful of people's third-hand data on the internet; rather, the ENTIRE WESTERN MEDIA is part of the Illuminati Propaganda Department.
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As long as it's Alex Jones and not Wolf Blitzer, it's not "programming."Â If it was broadcast on television it's untrue but if you read it on the internet, well, you're "awake and aware."Â
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Right. Got it.