Roe v Wade: After 40 years, deep divide is legacy

NEW YORK (AP) - By today's politically polarized standards, the Supreme Court's momentous Roe v. Wade ruling was a landslide. By a 7-2 vote on Jan. 22, 1973, the justices established a nationwide right to abortion.
Forty years and roughly 55 million abortions later, however, the ruling's legacy is the opposite of consensus. Abortion ranks as one of the most intractably divisive issues in America, and is likely to remain so as rival camps of true believers see little space for common ground.
Unfolding events in two states illustrate the depth of the divide. In New York, already a bastion of liberal abortion laws, Gov. Andrew Cuomo pledged in his Jan. 9 State of the State speech to entrench those rights even more firmly. In Mississippi, where many anti-abortion laws have been enacted in recent years, the lone remaining abortion clinic is on the verge of closure because nearby hospitals won't grant obligatory admitting privileges to its doctors.
"Unlike a lot of other issues in the culture wars, this is the one in which both sides really regard themselves as civil rights activists, trying to expand the frontiers of human freedom," said Jon Shields, a professor of government at Claremont McKenna College. "That's a recipe for permanent conflict."
On another hot-button social issue - same-sex marriage - there's been a strong trend of increasing support in recent years, encompassing nearly all major demographic categories.
There's been no such dramatic shift, in either direction, on abortion.
For example, a new Pew Research Center poll finds 63 percent of U.S. adults opposed to overturning Roe, compared to 60 percent in 1992. The latest Gallup poll on the topic shows 52 percent of Americans saying abortion should be legal under certain circumstances, 25 percent wanting it legal in all cases and 20 percent wanting it outlawed in all cases - roughly the same breakdown as in the 1970s.
"There's a large share of Americans for whom this is not a black-and-white issue," said Michael Dimock, the Pew center's director. "The circumstances matter to them."
Indeed, many conflicted respondents tell pollsters they support the right to legal abortion while considering it morally wrong. And a 2011 survey of 3,000 adults by the Public Religion Research Institute found many who classified themselves as both "pro-life" and "pro-choice."
Shields, like many scholars of the abortion debate, doubts a victor will emerge anytime soon.
"There are reasonable arguments on both sides, making rationally defensible moral claims," he said.
Nonetheless, the rival legions of activists and advocacy groups on the front lines of the conflict each claim momentum is on their side as they convene symposiums and organize rallies to commemorate the Roe anniversary.
Supporters of legal access to abortion were relieved by the victory of their ally, President Barack Obama, over anti-abortion Republican Mitt Romney in November.
A key reason for the relief related to the Supreme Court, whose nine justices are believed to divide 5-4 in favor of a broad right to abortion. Romney, if elected, might have been able to appoint conservative justices who could help overturn Roe v. Wade, but Obama's victory makes that unlikely at least for the next four years.
Abortion-rights groups also were heartened by a backlash to certain anti-abortion initiatives and rhetoric that they viewed as extreme.
"Until politicians feel there's a price to pay for voting against women, they will continue to do it," said Cecile Richards, president of the Planned Parenthood Federation of America, a lightning rod for conservative attacks because it's the leading abortion provider in the U.S.
In Missouri and Indiana, Republican candidates for the U.S. Senate lost races that their party initially expected to win after making widely criticized comments regarding abortion rights for impregnated rape victims. In Virginia, protests combined with mockery on late-night TV shows prompted GOP politicians to scale back a bill that would have required women seeking abortions to undergo a transvaginal ultrasound.
"All these things got Americans angry and got them to realize just how extreme the other side is," said Jennifer Dalven, director of the American Civil Liberties Union's Reproductive Freedom Project.
"This issue will remain very divisive," she said. "But I do see this as a sea-change moment... The American public wants abortion to remain safe, legal and accessible."
However, anti-abortion leaders insist they have reason for optimism, particularly at the state level.
In the past two years, following Republican election gains in 2010, GOP-dominated state legislatures have passed more than 130 bills intended to reduce access to abortion. The measures include mandatory counseling and ultrasound for women seeking abortions, bans on abortion after 20 weeks of pregnancy, curbs on how insurers cover the procedure, and new regulations for abortion clinics.
The ACLU and other abortion-rights groups are challenging several of the laws in court, notably the 20-week ban. Yet already this year, Republican leaders in Texas, Mississippi and elsewhere are talking about new legislative efforts to restrict abortion.
Mississippi's Gov. Phil Bryant says he wants to end abortion in the state and is eager for the remaining clinic, the Jackson Women's Health Organization, to close.
"My goal, of course, is to shut it down," Bryant told reporters on Jan. 10. "If I had the power to do so legally, I'd do so tomorrow."
The clinic is a steady target of anti-abortion protesters who take turns praying, singing hymns and confronting patients. Its administrator, Diane Derzis, says the three principal physicians on her staff have been unable to get admitting privileges at area hospitals due to pressure from the anti-abortion movement.
Such developments hearten Charmaine Yoest, president of Americans United for Life, one of the groups most active in proposing anti-abortion bills for state legislatures to consider.
"Within the context of Roe, we have been remarkably successful in terms of expanding the legal protection of human life," Yoest said. "We're working to make Roe irrelevant."
Yoest's optimism derives partly from her belief that young Americans are increasingly skeptical about abortion, though polls give mixed verdicts on this matter.
"It is really easy to explain the pro-life position to a child - it's hard to explain to them why you should kill a baby before it's born," Yoest said.
Supporters of legal access to abortion dispute the notion of swelling anti-abortion sentiment among young people, but some activists do sense a gap in terms of political intensity.
"I have enormous hope in this millennial generation - they're progressive, thoughtful and they identify in their pro-choice values," said Nancy Keenan, who will soon be stepping down after eight years as president of NARAL Pro-Choice America.
"But there is an intensity gap - they don't act on those values," Keenan said. "The other side votes their anti-choice, pro-life values - it's at the top of their political activity."
She drew a contrast with the push for same-sex marriage.
"With marriage equality, gays and lesbians are fighting for something they didn't have," Keenan said. "In the case of reproductive rights, you're trying to maintain the status quo. The millennial generation doesn't see it as threatened."
Another difference: the campaign for same-sex marriage has benefited greatly from personal testimony by gay couples, speaking out in legislative hearings and campaign videos. By contrast, although millions of American women have had abortions, relatively few speak out publicly to defend their decisions.
"If you know some women, you know a woman who's had abortion," said Dr. Anne Davis, who is medical director for Physicians for Reproductive Choice and Health and provides abortions as part of her practice in New York City.
"But you do not see women talking about their abortions," Davis said. "They do what they need to do and move on. I can't blame people for that."
Davis, who learned abortion techniques during her residency at the University of Washington in the mid-'90s, said the procedure has become increasingly safe - notably with the advent of abortions via medication. She expressed dismay at the spate of restrictive laws that she and many of her fellow physicians view as ill-founded.
"Initially, we'd say, 'That's ridiculous' - and now we're stuck with them," she said.
Despite all the furor, abortion has been commonplace in the post-Roe era, with about one-third of adult women estimated to have had at least one in their lifetime.
Of the roughly 1.2 million U.S. women who have abortions each year, half are 25 or older, about 18 percent are teens, and the rest are 20-24. About 60 percent have given birth to least one child prior to getting an abortion. A disproportionately high number are black or Hispanic; and regardless of race, high abortion rates are linked to economic hard times.
The Roe opinion, written by Justice Harry Blackmun, asserted that the right to privacy extended to a women's decision on whether to end a pregnancy. States have been allowed to restrict abortion access at late stages of pregnancy, but only if they make exceptions for protecting the mother's health - and the net result has been one of the most liberal abortion policies in the world.
At the time of Roe v. Wade, abortion was legal on request in four states, allowed under limited circumstances in about 16 others, and outlawed under nearly all circumstances in the other states, including Texas, where the Roe case originated.
One of the most liberal members of the current Supreme Court, Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, is among those who have questioned the timing of the Roe ruling and suggested that it contributed to the ongoing bitter debate.
"It's not that the judgment was wrong, but it moved too far too fast," Ginsburg said at Columbia University last year.
She said the court could have put off dealing with abortion while the state-by-state process evolved or it could have struck down just the Texas law, which allowed abortions only to save a mother's life.
Asked about Ginsburg's musings, Cecile Richards of Planned Parenthood said the Roe ruling was critically needed to curb unsafe abortions in states where the procedure was outlawed.
"Women were paying the price with their lives," she said.
However, Carter Snead, a Notre Dame law professor who has studied abortion and bioethics, said Blackmun's opinion was wrong to dismantle state anti-abortion laws so sweepingly.
"One key virtue of democracy is that, win or lose, the outcomes are generally seen as legitimate because all of the competing sides have had their say," Snead said in an e-mail. "In Roe, the court short-circuited this process entirely, and handed a near total victory to one side of a bitterly contested question on the gravest of matters."
Snead said abortion opponents have an enduringly compelling argument - "that the smallest, weakest, and most unwanted nevertheless have a claim on us." But he said this argument can't be translated into public policy without a change in the Supreme Court's makeup.
Looking ahead, there's no clear path toward an easing of the debate. Some activists and politicians say common ground could be found in a broad new campaign to curtail unintended pregnancies, but many anti-abortion leaders have shown little interest in this.
Some abortion opponents, such as Serrin Foster of Feminists for Life, urge bipartisan efforts to support pregnant young women as they pursue careers or education, so they don't feel financial pressure to have an abortion. But supporters of legal access to abortion look askance at such proposals if they are coupled with calls to take abortion decision-making out of a woman's hands.
For Carrie Gordon Earll, now senior policy analyst for the conservative ministry Focus on the Family, that Roe-established freedom of choice once seemed logical. She got pregnant in 1981 while attending a Christian college and opted to have an abortion.
She recently made a video expressing her regrets.
"I can look back at those 40 years and say without a doubt, the world is not a better place because of abortion, women are not in a better place," she says. "What it has created is a world where you're almost expected to abort if you're pregnant at an inopportune time."
In an interview, Earll mused on how the anti-abortion movement has persevered since Roe.
"We've had 40 years of marketing by Hollywood and the cultural elites that abortion is a good thing, and we still have a battle going on," she said. "We're holding our own."
A similar refrain of perseverance is sounded by Dr. Douglas Laube of Madison, Wis., who began performing abortions as part of his practice a year after the Roe decision.
"It was important for women to be able to legally ensure their right to make their own decision," said Laube, who is chairman of Physicians for Reproductive Health Choice. "But it served to polarize society politically."
Laube is worried by the spread of anti-abortion state laws, but encouraged by the surge of women becoming obstetrician-gynecologists - a trend he hopes will ease the shortage of abortion providers.
"I see the movement toward the religious right being countered by a growing movement among practitioners and advocates for maintaining this as legal," he said. "That means the controversy will continue. But it also means we will hold our ground."
-----
Associated Press writer Emily Wagster Pettus in Jackson, Miss., contributed to this report.
Forty years and roughly 55 million abortions later, however, the ruling's legacy is the opposite of consensus. Abortion ranks as one of the most intractably divisive issues in America, and is likely to remain so as rival camps of true believers see little space for common ground.
Unfolding events in two states illustrate the depth of the divide. In New York, already a bastion of liberal abortion laws, Gov. Andrew Cuomo pledged in his Jan. 9 State of the State speech to entrench those rights even more firmly. In Mississippi, where many anti-abortion laws have been enacted in recent years, the lone remaining abortion clinic is on the verge of closure because nearby hospitals won't grant obligatory admitting privileges to its doctors.
"Unlike a lot of other issues in the culture wars, this is the one in which both sides really regard themselves as civil rights activists, trying to expand the frontiers of human freedom," said Jon Shields, a professor of government at Claremont McKenna College. "That's a recipe for permanent conflict."
On another hot-button social issue - same-sex marriage - there's been a strong trend of increasing support in recent years, encompassing nearly all major demographic categories.
There's been no such dramatic shift, in either direction, on abortion.
For example, a new Pew Research Center poll finds 63 percent of U.S. adults opposed to overturning Roe, compared to 60 percent in 1992. The latest Gallup poll on the topic shows 52 percent of Americans saying abortion should be legal under certain circumstances, 25 percent wanting it legal in all cases and 20 percent wanting it outlawed in all cases - roughly the same breakdown as in the 1970s.
"There's a large share of Americans for whom this is not a black-and-white issue," said Michael Dimock, the Pew center's director. "The circumstances matter to them."
Indeed, many conflicted respondents tell pollsters they support the right to legal abortion while considering it morally wrong. And a 2011 survey of 3,000 adults by the Public Religion Research Institute found many who classified themselves as both "pro-life" and "pro-choice."
Shields, like many scholars of the abortion debate, doubts a victor will emerge anytime soon.
"There are reasonable arguments on both sides, making rationally defensible moral claims," he said.
Nonetheless, the rival legions of activists and advocacy groups on the front lines of the conflict each claim momentum is on their side as they convene symposiums and organize rallies to commemorate the Roe anniversary.
Supporters of legal access to abortion were relieved by the victory of their ally, President Barack Obama, over anti-abortion Republican Mitt Romney in November.
A key reason for the relief related to the Supreme Court, whose nine justices are believed to divide 5-4 in favor of a broad right to abortion. Romney, if elected, might have been able to appoint conservative justices who could help overturn Roe v. Wade, but Obama's victory makes that unlikely at least for the next four years.
Abortion-rights groups also were heartened by a backlash to certain anti-abortion initiatives and rhetoric that they viewed as extreme.
"Until politicians feel there's a price to pay for voting against women, they will continue to do it," said Cecile Richards, president of the Planned Parenthood Federation of America, a lightning rod for conservative attacks because it's the leading abortion provider in the U.S.
In Missouri and Indiana, Republican candidates for the U.S. Senate lost races that their party initially expected to win after making widely criticized comments regarding abortion rights for impregnated rape victims. In Virginia, protests combined with mockery on late-night TV shows prompted GOP politicians to scale back a bill that would have required women seeking abortions to undergo a transvaginal ultrasound.
"All these things got Americans angry and got them to realize just how extreme the other side is," said Jennifer Dalven, director of the American Civil Liberties Union's Reproductive Freedom Project.
"This issue will remain very divisive," she said. "But I do see this as a sea-change moment... The American public wants abortion to remain safe, legal and accessible."
However, anti-abortion leaders insist they have reason for optimism, particularly at the state level.
In the past two years, following Republican election gains in 2010, GOP-dominated state legislatures have passed more than 130 bills intended to reduce access to abortion. The measures include mandatory counseling and ultrasound for women seeking abortions, bans on abortion after 20 weeks of pregnancy, curbs on how insurers cover the procedure, and new regulations for abortion clinics.
The ACLU and other abortion-rights groups are challenging several of the laws in court, notably the 20-week ban. Yet already this year, Republican leaders in Texas, Mississippi and elsewhere are talking about new legislative efforts to restrict abortion.
Mississippi's Gov. Phil Bryant says he wants to end abortion in the state and is eager for the remaining clinic, the Jackson Women's Health Organization, to close.
"My goal, of course, is to shut it down," Bryant told reporters on Jan. 10. "If I had the power to do so legally, I'd do so tomorrow."
The clinic is a steady target of anti-abortion protesters who take turns praying, singing hymns and confronting patients. Its administrator, Diane Derzis, says the three principal physicians on her staff have been unable to get admitting privileges at area hospitals due to pressure from the anti-abortion movement.
Such developments hearten Charmaine Yoest, president of Americans United for Life, one of the groups most active in proposing anti-abortion bills for state legislatures to consider.
"Within the context of Roe, we have been remarkably successful in terms of expanding the legal protection of human life," Yoest said. "We're working to make Roe irrelevant."
Yoest's optimism derives partly from her belief that young Americans are increasingly skeptical about abortion, though polls give mixed verdicts on this matter.
"It is really easy to explain the pro-life position to a child - it's hard to explain to them why you should kill a baby before it's born," Yoest said.
Supporters of legal access to abortion dispute the notion of swelling anti-abortion sentiment among young people, but some activists do sense a gap in terms of political intensity.
"I have enormous hope in this millennial generation - they're progressive, thoughtful and they identify in their pro-choice values," said Nancy Keenan, who will soon be stepping down after eight years as president of NARAL Pro-Choice America.
"But there is an intensity gap - they don't act on those values," Keenan said. "The other side votes their anti-choice, pro-life values - it's at the top of their political activity."
She drew a contrast with the push for same-sex marriage.
"With marriage equality, gays and lesbians are fighting for something they didn't have," Keenan said. "In the case of reproductive rights, you're trying to maintain the status quo. The millennial generation doesn't see it as threatened."
Another difference: the campaign for same-sex marriage has benefited greatly from personal testimony by gay couples, speaking out in legislative hearings and campaign videos. By contrast, although millions of American women have had abortions, relatively few speak out publicly to defend their decisions.
"If you know some women, you know a woman who's had abortion," said Dr. Anne Davis, who is medical director for Physicians for Reproductive Choice and Health and provides abortions as part of her practice in New York City.
"But you do not see women talking about their abortions," Davis said. "They do what they need to do and move on. I can't blame people for that."
Davis, who learned abortion techniques during her residency at the University of Washington in the mid-'90s, said the procedure has become increasingly safe - notably with the advent of abortions via medication. She expressed dismay at the spate of restrictive laws that she and many of her fellow physicians view as ill-founded.
"Initially, we'd say, 'That's ridiculous' - and now we're stuck with them," she said.
Despite all the furor, abortion has been commonplace in the post-Roe era, with about one-third of adult women estimated to have had at least one in their lifetime.
Of the roughly 1.2 million U.S. women who have abortions each year, half are 25 or older, about 18 percent are teens, and the rest are 20-24. About 60 percent have given birth to least one child prior to getting an abortion. A disproportionately high number are black or Hispanic; and regardless of race, high abortion rates are linked to economic hard times.
The Roe opinion, written by Justice Harry Blackmun, asserted that the right to privacy extended to a women's decision on whether to end a pregnancy. States have been allowed to restrict abortion access at late stages of pregnancy, but only if they make exceptions for protecting the mother's health - and the net result has been one of the most liberal abortion policies in the world.
At the time of Roe v. Wade, abortion was legal on request in four states, allowed under limited circumstances in about 16 others, and outlawed under nearly all circumstances in the other states, including Texas, where the Roe case originated.
One of the most liberal members of the current Supreme Court, Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, is among those who have questioned the timing of the Roe ruling and suggested that it contributed to the ongoing bitter debate.
"It's not that the judgment was wrong, but it moved too far too fast," Ginsburg said at Columbia University last year.
She said the court could have put off dealing with abortion while the state-by-state process evolved or it could have struck down just the Texas law, which allowed abortions only to save a mother's life.
Asked about Ginsburg's musings, Cecile Richards of Planned Parenthood said the Roe ruling was critically needed to curb unsafe abortions in states where the procedure was outlawed.
"Women were paying the price with their lives," she said.
However, Carter Snead, a Notre Dame law professor who has studied abortion and bioethics, said Blackmun's opinion was wrong to dismantle state anti-abortion laws so sweepingly.
"One key virtue of democracy is that, win or lose, the outcomes are generally seen as legitimate because all of the competing sides have had their say," Snead said in an e-mail. "In Roe, the court short-circuited this process entirely, and handed a near total victory to one side of a bitterly contested question on the gravest of matters."
Snead said abortion opponents have an enduringly compelling argument - "that the smallest, weakest, and most unwanted nevertheless have a claim on us." But he said this argument can't be translated into public policy without a change in the Supreme Court's makeup.
Looking ahead, there's no clear path toward an easing of the debate. Some activists and politicians say common ground could be found in a broad new campaign to curtail unintended pregnancies, but many anti-abortion leaders have shown little interest in this.
Some abortion opponents, such as Serrin Foster of Feminists for Life, urge bipartisan efforts to support pregnant young women as they pursue careers or education, so they don't feel financial pressure to have an abortion. But supporters of legal access to abortion look askance at such proposals if they are coupled with calls to take abortion decision-making out of a woman's hands.
For Carrie Gordon Earll, now senior policy analyst for the conservative ministry Focus on the Family, that Roe-established freedom of choice once seemed logical. She got pregnant in 1981 while attending a Christian college and opted to have an abortion.
She recently made a video expressing her regrets.
"I can look back at those 40 years and say without a doubt, the world is not a better place because of abortion, women are not in a better place," she says. "What it has created is a world where you're almost expected to abort if you're pregnant at an inopportune time."
In an interview, Earll mused on how the anti-abortion movement has persevered since Roe.
"We've had 40 years of marketing by Hollywood and the cultural elites that abortion is a good thing, and we still have a battle going on," she said. "We're holding our own."
A similar refrain of perseverance is sounded by Dr. Douglas Laube of Madison, Wis., who began performing abortions as part of his practice a year after the Roe decision.
"It was important for women to be able to legally ensure their right to make their own decision," said Laube, who is chairman of Physicians for Reproductive Health Choice. "But it served to polarize society politically."
Laube is worried by the spread of anti-abortion state laws, but encouraged by the surge of women becoming obstetrician-gynecologists - a trend he hopes will ease the shortage of abortion providers.
"I see the movement toward the religious right being countered by a growing movement among practitioners and advocates for maintaining this as legal," he said. "That means the controversy will continue. But it also means we will hold our ground."
-----
Associated Press writer Emily Wagster Pettus in Jackson, Miss., contributed to this report.
These are the same wicked western women who feel it's okay to terminate an unborn child inside their bodies, yet it's wrong to put someone to death who has killed/raped others.....typical liberal hypocrites!Â
 @archon312 I would like to see the data to back up what you say or did you hear it on Hannity so it has to be true?
Iâm assuming conservatives mean that the gun control measures being proposed (for the record,I'm not on board with all of them) is invasive to the privacy of those who want to own a firearm and invasive to rights in general. Unfortunately for conservatives, theyâve slammed into a wall and itâs called hypocrisy. Because conservatives are he'll bent on redefining rape and performing invasive vaginal probes,restricting contraception,denying marriage equality to gays,attacking the right to vote.Conservatives are overwhelmingly Christian. Of course itâs of the fundamentalist variety. And like most fundamentalists, they want to impose their religion onto the entire population whether we like it or not. Part of this agenda means forcing Christianity in schools across the country. Conservatives in several states including Indiana, Florida, Tennessee and others have tried to requires prayer in school and have tried to require creationism in science class. This is all regardless of whether you are a Christian or not.To conservatives, every aspect of our private lives should be heavily regulated from who we marry to what we do in the bedroom to what medical decisions we make to what religion we practice to how we vote and who we vote for to what culture we belong to. But they think guns should be free from regulation. They think that even the more reasonable gun control measures are invasive. They are wrong and they are hypocrites.
 @noneofyourbizznessÂ
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"Conservatives" (you paint with a VERY broad brush here), are indeed hypocrites, but not for that you are suggesting. You have your analogies all wrong.
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From the positions most pro-life people take it is not about the mother, but the child. They equate abortion with he same breath as drowning an infant in a bath. Two living, breathing people who have not the strength to fight back.
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Gun control, or the lack of, is about an AN ADUALT and their right to bear arms (and secondarily protect the very people they feel are threatened).
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Thus the two things are not about freedom, but one is about freedom and the other is about protecting the vulnerable.
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I feel the hypocrisy comes from that very same group wanting to put 17 year olds on death row and execute young people. But had they just not forced that (still child) into the world, the person they harmed to get into a position of being executed would still be unharmed and they would still be put to death.
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Itâs ok to kill a child who makes poor choices and harms people because they were not wanted, but not OK to prevent that child from ever existing and causing harm to begin with.
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I am a father, any one that can abort a child is a murder in my book.
Also what they do not tell you is that after the abortion Depression sets in among other things. how can one become depressed if they have no sense of guilt? And that is another thing, People that get abortions wind up needing counseling services to be re-programed into a train of thought stating that there decision was correct.
Having just become a great-grandfather for the second time, I am a happy person. Those that want to abort their unborn child should consider all the ramifications before they act, or choose a more effective method of birth control. Â
The majority of white, evangelical christians are against abortion. In all other groups, the majority is pro-choice. Even black, evangelicals. The ten percent of the population represented by the first group are continuing to attempt to dictate to all Americans. Even within that group, the younger generations are more pro-choice than their parents or grand-parents.
 @david_42 I always find the terminology a bit ingenuine.Â
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"pro-choice". Because, we certainly wouldn't want to use the term "pro-killing an unborn fetus"
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...even in your post, the "Â evangelical christians are against abortion", and those for abortion are 'pro-choice'.Â
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It's blatant wordsmithing. Using terms and phrasing to elicit emotional response. Nobody wants to be supportive of a group that is 'anti' something, while rallying around someone who is 'pro-choice' is seemingly/comparitively heroic.Â
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Hence where my comments about finding a rational discussion of the issue comes from.Â
 @MarkKpic  @david_42Â
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So could you then call people who are not "pro-choice" "anti-choice"? What if you called people who are "pro-choice" "pro-abortion"? How about the pro-life being "fetal baby forcers"? Call it what it is, people forcing others to carry babies they didn't want.
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"Wordsmithing" is something we do. I didn't lie, i fibbed, I don't steal I borrow. I am note a mean person, just misunderstood.
Â
Is it disingenuous? Yes by definition. But like you said people don't want to be "anti" anything, and everyone likes to believe on the sum, they are good people.
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If you disagree with that, you are in effect calling them jerks.
Â
But I am a nice guy. I would never call a person a jerk.
Â
To their face
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 :)
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 @Repoman  @MarkKpic  @david_42 My apologies if my post came across as an 'attack' of any kind. I too have fallen victim to the reality that sarcasm does not communicate well via text.Â
Â
Speech, language, words, have meanings. Our media-centric, and PR laiden society seems obsessed with 'soft sell' and spin under the guise of being "politically correct" or not offending anyone.Â
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Two points jump to mind.Â
 1) "take offense" is an active verb. Those who receive it are choosing to 'take' it. That is not my choice, it is theirs. If something I've said is offensive, perhaps at some point there will come a consideration as to where that offense was taken from. If what I am saying is not true, show me why it is not true. I am not so indignant as to believe that I know everything, nor are my opinions so entrenched that they cannot be changed. But, it is not likely that they will be altered by PR and spin.Â
 2) PR and spin seek to obsfucate and hide the truth as a general rule. While I will admit that there are times when appropriate considerations should be made, when ones choices terminate innocent lives is not that time.Â
Â
The truth is the truth. It is it's own reward, and is (in and of its self) worth saying. It is often not well received, and seldom spoken without resentment and opposition, but it is still the truth. That alone makes it worth speaking.Â
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 That is my place, and I choose it willingly. I also realize that (as was so well versed by Maggie Thatcher) "Standing in the middle of the road is very dangerous; you get knocked down by traffic from both sides."
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And please, for the love of pete.... this is not a GUN issue. Abortion has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the current mania surrounding the gun debate. I do get your point about the wordsmithing, but the mania that has enveloped the whole of the discussion has no place in this one.Â
 @MarkKpic  @david_42Â
Â
Sarcasm translates poorly in text it seems.
Â
In essence agreed with you. I wanted to impart that no one likes to be the bad guy or even SOUND like the bad guy. Thus the whole of the language of nuance.
Â
I am not condoning it, I am just suggesting it is more ingrained in us than marketing, politics or politeness. We all want to be good, and words are how we justify doing anti-social things.
Â
And all of this is outside the conversation of Abortion. There is the "Gun Lobby" because who is "pro-gun"? So where is the "anti-gun" lobby? Oh wait they are "gun control advocates".
Â
No amount of frustration in it will make this go away. As we become more "polite" we will become entrenched in the use of language as a tool to make no one the bad person.
Â
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 @Repoman  @MarkKpic  @david_42 There's so many here, I hardly know where to begin...
Â
>'So could you then call people..."
Â
Well, I'm not by any definition the PR or spin master. You, as well as anyone else, can 'call' people on either side of the debate what you'd like. The point of my post was that the PR groups on both sides of the debate seem to go out of their way to avoid even the use of the word, or mention of the procedure they are either advocating or protesting. It's a pervasive and ingenuine component of our culture. The thought process seems to be that if we repeat a lie enough, it becomes truth.Â
Â
'pro-choice'... Well.... You are CHOOSING to abort an unborn child. Right, wrong, good, bad, otherwise. The truth is that you are making a 'choice' for another life. The argument could also be made that the 'choice' was made when the decision was made to have unprotected sex. And, let's be honest here, you can use whatever statistics you like, the fact is that the vast majority of abortions are performed because the woman decides that they do not want a child. Not for medical necessity, not for rape or incest, but because, for whatever reason, they just made an 'oops' and want to not be pregnant.Â
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'pro-life'... You are CHOOSING that childs life for it. Regardless of, and knowing nothing of the childs familial circumstance. Doesn't matter if the mother just made a bad decision about the paternal donar, or if her financial situation ensures that family a lifetime of welfare and poverty, you are 'choosing' that childs life by forcing the mother to bring it to term. And, again, lets be honest here... The adoption option is not always a viable one. Statistics availible for 2004 tell us that less than 5% of mothers who carry a child to term are willing to put them up for adoption.Â
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>'"Wordsmithing" is something we do. I didn't lie, i fibbed, I don't steal I borrow. I am note a mean person, just misunderstood.'
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It's something that society accepts in lieu of the truth. It has become a pervasive cancer on our social, political and ideological/theological landscape. It's (IMO) a BIG part of the breakdown of the US cultural and societal fabric. As I said above, the generally accepted line of thinking is that if you slap enough lipstick on a pig, it can win a beauty pagent. Unfortunately, thanks to our 24/7/365 media and socially voyeristic tendencies, it's usually about accurate.Â
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>'Is it disingenuous? Yes by definition. But like you said people don't want to be "anti" anything, and everyone likes to believe on the sum, they are good people."
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Yes... but.... *facepalm*
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>'If you disagree with that, you are in effect calling them jerks."
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Step 1, excuse the behavior (yes, but...)
Step 2, counter accuse and slander.
Step 3, Reaffirm your own 'goodness'.
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>'But I am a nice guy. '
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The truth is the truth. Like it, don't like it, disagree with it, agree with it. It's still the truth.Â
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Abortion is the killing of an unborn child.Â
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As I said below, there are circumstances under which I could justify the decision to terminate a pregnancy. Because my partner doesn't like the way it feels when he wears a condom, or because I'm not on birth control are not among those reasons.Â
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 @david_42 Oh really and the government forcing birth Control isn't a form of dictatorship? You want to know what a dictator is, Look to Obama.
Happy to say our family is doing its part: my nephew's wife is an ob-gyn.
"There's a large share of Americans for whom this is not a black-and-white issue," said Michael Dimock, the Pew center's director. "The circumstances matter to them."
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I find it rare that I'm agreement with the Pew ctr, but this is one of those instances.
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Despite the uber-conservative (Re:Â Richard Mourdock) thought process, I tend to believe that there are circumstances where abortion is a reasonable response to an unwanted pregnancy.
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On the other hand, the fact that abortion has become a defacto means of birth control to me is abhorrent.
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But, much like the guns discussion, or same sex marriage, such issues elude common sense middle ground solutions.
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"It is a poverty to decide that a child must die so that you may live as you wish."
-Mother TheresaÂ
 @MarkKpicÂ
Has it become so routine? I have never heard ANYONE who has ever considered abortion ever claim that.
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Have some women had multiple abortions? Probably, no one I have ever heard of, but I am confident they exist.
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But just as pluasable is there exist people who perform multiple rapes, or murders. People do evil things all the time within or without the law.
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An abortion has never been a solution to any of my life's challenges. I can guarantee I have not faced all of the challenges available in life. I question that the choice of abortion is routinely taken lightly and is more often than it is not, the single most difficult choice a person has ever had to come to.
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But I agree that common sense and middle ground will elude us. If you feel conception creates a person at that moment, then there will be people who fundamentally disagree with you and those people will work to have the law reflect their beliefs.
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I don't ever see this tug-of-war ending. We still have people kill each other en-masse for the word they use to describe the same God.
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 @Repoman For the last year statistics are availible, there were aproximately 1.21 million abortions in the US.Â
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There were 307,000 women getting breast augmentations in 2011. That's considered to be a pretty 'routine' procedure.
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There are 450,000Â liposuctions are performed every year. Again, a fairly routine procedure by all standards.Â
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In excess of 270 000 appendectomies are performed each year in the United States. A bit more (medically) touchy, but still pretty 'routine'.Â
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I dont know about you, but the fact that there are 4x as many fetus killed by medical procedure than appendectomeies would, to me, make the practice seem pretty 'routine'.
 @RepomanÂ
Abortion statistics-
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http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html
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http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss6108a1.htm?s_cid=ss6108a1_w
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The figure that I used (1.2 million) was, in fact, as you stated a combined statistic that included all terminated pregnancies, irrelevent of the cause. The number quoted by the CDC for 2009 was 784,507.
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An interesting side note about the CDC statistic is that the state of CA has not provided statistics to their data regarding maternally chosen terminated pregnancies for several years because of legislation passed that includes such data under patient privacy laws. Estimates range, and none can be documented because of this, so I'll just accept the CDC figures and be done with it.Â
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I was incorrect in my original statistic. For that I apologize.Â
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Breast augmentations-Â http://center4research.org/medical-care-for-adults/breast-implants-and-other-cosmetic-procedures/breast-implants-a-research-and-regulatory-summary/
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Liposuction-Â http://www.plasticsurgery.org/
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appendectomies-Â http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1876946/ Â Â
(and, they actually quote a figure of an average of 280,000/year)
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 @MarkKpicÂ
Could you cite where these statistics came from?
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having worked at hospitals, I can say that these don't seem like numbers I would expect knowing what i know locally (I was never exposed to nationwide data).
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I would also argue that many of the non-elective procedures are sorted here individually, but are done in conjunction with others. Thus a lipo might be labeled a lipo, but may also include another procedure not part of the data provided. Thus the data may allow to artificially low numbers.
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Non-elective surgery almost always contains elements not âlistedâ as part of the procedure and is often not included in data. For example many people who get gall stones removed also have their appendix removed. Thus reducing the number of appendectomies done (the whole purpose of doing it is top preclude the later procedure). Thus number of non-elective procedures can also be artificially low.
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But let's look at the raw numbers assuming all things are equal.
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There are over 300,000,000 women in the US
http://www.indexmundi.com/united_states/demographics_profile.html
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At 1.21 million that is 0.0040 1/3Â percent of women on average. With 66% being of child bearing age at the time of the data, that's still 0.0058 and change percent of women, on average, who have had an abortion.
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So even assuming all other things about the data you quote it right, less than one in 1000 women, on average, have had an abortion.
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That still does not seem routine.
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 @MarkKpic I have to agree on this especially in what "Mother Theresa has to say"
 @MarkKpic ~  Well said, Mark...
There is a divide because the court was wrong.
Thanks for your simpleton thought !
 @sortbait Wrong about what?  A vote was passed based on what voters wanted and still want.  There will perhaps always be a divide between the pro choice, and religious people who believe only in fetal rights, and can ignore the reality of women who carry fetuses they do not want; fetuses who cannot be born living; fetuses conceived by rape and on it goes.  The divide is not due to a court being "wrong".
@BCH mom @sortbait "carry a fetus they don't want" Then perhaps they should think twice about having sex, or at least use some type of birth control other than abortion. Should there be exceptions? Of course but to use abortion as a means of birth control is wrong and is a sin IMHO. With other forms of birth control cheaply available abortion shouldn't even be considered.
@margay1 @BCH @sortbait Exactly! I'm against abortion as a general rule but I believe there are cases when it's justified, such as rape, incest, and danger to the mother's life.
 @scoreboard  @BCH  @sortbait  ~  I fully agree with you, scoreboard, on the issue of having abortions as a means of birth control...but I still don't think that government should be the ones making the choice for individuals.  The question of abortion should be between the woman and her doctor (and whatever other people, if any, that she feels should be involved in the decision-making process).  Â
The government should ONLY be involved in making sure that abortions are not performed by people not qualified to perform them and/or in unsafe places (eg: back-alley cash-only "clinics"). Â Â
I didn't realize there was a "vote" on this subject, except by the US Supreme Court!Â
 @BCH mom  "Carry fetus' they don't want"  Damn cold thing to say.  The children didn't ask to be born or chose what circumstance that brought them to this world.  Despite everyone's belief, this remains true.  Take that into account before you spout such garbage.
 @BCH mom  @sortbait I like your generalization. We all know there are no religious folks that are pro choice, and no atheists that are pro life.Â
I prefer to roe, too cold to wade here.