Some gun shows canceling after Conn. mass shooting

SARATOGA SPRINGS, N.Y. (AP) - Several gun shows, all about an hour's drive from Newtown, Conn., have been canceled.
A show in White Plains, N.Y. - brought back a few years ago after being called off for a decade because of the Columbine shooting - is off because officials decided it didn't seem appropriate now, either. In Danbury, Conn. - about 10 miles west of Newtown - the venue backed out. Same with three other shows in New York's Hudson Valley, according to the organizer.
Gun advocates aren't backing down from their insistence on the right to keep and bear arms. But heightened sensitivities and raw nerves since the Newtown shooting have led to toned-down displays at gun shows and prompted some officials and sponsors to cancel the well-attended exhibitions altogether.
Some of the most popular guns will be missing from next weekend's gun show in Saratoga Springs, N.Y., after show organizers agreed to bar the display and sale of AR-15 military-style semiautomatic weapons and their large-clip magazines.
"The majority of people wanted these guns out of the city," said Chris Mathiesen, Saratoga Springs' public safety commissioner. "They don't want them sold in our city, and I agree. Newtown, Conn., is not that far away."
The mayor of Barre, Vt., wants a ban on military-style assault weapons being sold at an annual gun show in February. Mayor Thom Lauzon says he supports responsible gun ownership but is making the request "as a father." The police chief in Waterbury, Conn., just a few miles from Newtown, has halted permits for gun shows, saying he was concerned about firearms changing hands that might one day be used in a mass shooting.
In White Plains, in New York's suburban Westchester County, Executive Rob Astorino had brought back the show in 2010 after a ban of more than a decade following the 1999 Columbine High School shooting in Colorado, but he said the show would be inappropriate now. The shows in the Hudson Valley and Danbury were listed as canceled on the website for Big Al's Gun Shows. A man who answered the site's contact number said it was the venues that canceled the shows, not the promoter.
In Houston, transportation officials temporarily stopped using electronic freeway signs to give directions to gun shows amid complaints following such a show the day after the Dec. 14 school shooting. State-level transportation officials overruled the decision. The signs are routinely used to direct traffic or tell visitors where to exit freeways for rodeos, sporting events and gun shows.
On Wednesday, the City Council in Saratoga Springs urged organizers of a downtown gun show Jan. 12-13 not to display military-style weapons and the high-capacity magazines "of the type used in the Newtown tragedy." About a dozen people gave impassioned pleas at the meeting.
Show organizer David Petronis of New Eastcoast Arms Collectors Associates agreed to the limit.
"I don't think it's fair that we're taking the brunt of the problem," Petronis said, "but I can understand the reaction of people in doing so."
Petronis said his group is a "nice, clean family-oriented ... arms fair" that brings in thousands of visitors and a lot of money for the city. He stressed that buyers at his show undergo background checks, as per New York state law.
The gunman in the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting in December used an AR-15 to kill 20 first-graders and six educators in the school. The gun belonged to the shooter's mother, but it's not clear where it was bought. The shooting has led to calls for stricter regulation of assault weapons, though the National Rifle Association has steadfastly opposed such measures.
Gun dealers around the country are reporting a spike in sales of semiautomatic rifles amid renewed talk of a federal ban on assault weapons. The possibility of tighter gun control has also pumped up attendance at gun shows in several states.
Marv Kraus, who helped organize a weekend gun show in Evansville, Wis., said business has been especially strong lately.
Kraus said there was never any reason to consider postponing or canceling the Wisconsin event, which was scheduled for Friday through Sunday. One of the few vendors there with semiautomatic weapons, Scott Kuhl of Janesville, Wis., bristled at any suggestion that he temporarily stop selling semiautomatic weapons because of the Connecticut shooting.
"When a plane crashes, should they shut down the airline for six months?" Kuhl said. "This is my business; this is my livelihood."
Jared Hook, 40, who came to the show looking for a .223-caliber gun for coyote hunting, said he was glad vendors did not back away after Newtown.
"If anything, there's a lot more interest in guns now because of the shooting," Hook said. "People want them for protection, and it's good that they still have access to them."
Joel Koehler, a Pennsylvania gun dealer, said a few dealers have dropped out of a show this weekend in the Pocono Mountains, but only "because they have nothing to sell. They are out of inventory."
"The gun sales have been crazy. They are going through the roof," he said.
Koehler said he has felt no pressure to cancel his shows in Pennsylvania.
"The shows are going on," he said. "Nobody's said to us that we can't have them."
President Barack Obama has urged Congress to vote rapidly on measures that he says a majority of Americans support: a ban on the sale of military-style assault weapons; a ban on the sale of high-capacity magazines; and required criminal background checks for all gun buyers by removing loopholes that cover some sales, such as at gun shows in states that don't currently require checks.
Pennsylvania Gov. Tom Corbett on Friday said he would consider a radio-show caller's suggestion that gun shows be banned on publicly owned property, such as the Pennsylvania Farm Show Complex in Harrisburg. But he also noted that the complex is open to all businesses.
While government officials take a harder look at gun shows, organizers remain adamant that they run safe, legal businesses. There is no central government database on how guns used in crimes are obtained.
The Brady Campaign, which advocates for stricter state and federal gun laws, has long pushed to close the so-called "gun show loophole" by forcing every state to require background checks of buyers at the shows. They note that three of the weapons used in the Columbine attack were bought by someone who went to a gun show that didn't require a background check. Seventeen states require an extensive background check, according to the campaign.
And in the wake of Newtown is an emboldened group of advocates, like Susan Steer of Saratoga Springs, a 46-year-old married mother of three who started a petition seeking to cancel the local gun show. Steer said she'll continue to push for banning gun shows at the taxpayer-supported venue.
"For many of us," she said, "the shooting in Sandy Hook was the tipping point for taking some action."
___
Hill reported from Albany, N.Y. Contributing to this report were Dinesh Ramde in Evansville, Wis.; Michael Rubinkam in Allentown, Pa.; Peter Jackson in Harrisburg, Pa.; and Lisa Rathke in Montpelier, Vt.
A show in White Plains, N.Y. - brought back a few years ago after being called off for a decade because of the Columbine shooting - is off because officials decided it didn't seem appropriate now, either. In Danbury, Conn. - about 10 miles west of Newtown - the venue backed out. Same with three other shows in New York's Hudson Valley, according to the organizer.
Gun advocates aren't backing down from their insistence on the right to keep and bear arms. But heightened sensitivities and raw nerves since the Newtown shooting have led to toned-down displays at gun shows and prompted some officials and sponsors to cancel the well-attended exhibitions altogether.
Some of the most popular guns will be missing from next weekend's gun show in Saratoga Springs, N.Y., after show organizers agreed to bar the display and sale of AR-15 military-style semiautomatic weapons and their large-clip magazines.
"The majority of people wanted these guns out of the city," said Chris Mathiesen, Saratoga Springs' public safety commissioner. "They don't want them sold in our city, and I agree. Newtown, Conn., is not that far away."
The mayor of Barre, Vt., wants a ban on military-style assault weapons being sold at an annual gun show in February. Mayor Thom Lauzon says he supports responsible gun ownership but is making the request "as a father." The police chief in Waterbury, Conn., just a few miles from Newtown, has halted permits for gun shows, saying he was concerned about firearms changing hands that might one day be used in a mass shooting.
In White Plains, in New York's suburban Westchester County, Executive Rob Astorino had brought back the show in 2010 after a ban of more than a decade following the 1999 Columbine High School shooting in Colorado, but he said the show would be inappropriate now. The shows in the Hudson Valley and Danbury were listed as canceled on the website for Big Al's Gun Shows. A man who answered the site's contact number said it was the venues that canceled the shows, not the promoter.
In Houston, transportation officials temporarily stopped using electronic freeway signs to give directions to gun shows amid complaints following such a show the day after the Dec. 14 school shooting. State-level transportation officials overruled the decision. The signs are routinely used to direct traffic or tell visitors where to exit freeways for rodeos, sporting events and gun shows.
On Wednesday, the City Council in Saratoga Springs urged organizers of a downtown gun show Jan. 12-13 not to display military-style weapons and the high-capacity magazines "of the type used in the Newtown tragedy." About a dozen people gave impassioned pleas at the meeting.
Show organizer David Petronis of New Eastcoast Arms Collectors Associates agreed to the limit.
"I don't think it's fair that we're taking the brunt of the problem," Petronis said, "but I can understand the reaction of people in doing so."
Petronis said his group is a "nice, clean family-oriented ... arms fair" that brings in thousands of visitors and a lot of money for the city. He stressed that buyers at his show undergo background checks, as per New York state law.
The gunman in the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting in December used an AR-15 to kill 20 first-graders and six educators in the school. The gun belonged to the shooter's mother, but it's not clear where it was bought. The shooting has led to calls for stricter regulation of assault weapons, though the National Rifle Association has steadfastly opposed such measures.
Gun dealers around the country are reporting a spike in sales of semiautomatic rifles amid renewed talk of a federal ban on assault weapons. The possibility of tighter gun control has also pumped up attendance at gun shows in several states.
Marv Kraus, who helped organize a weekend gun show in Evansville, Wis., said business has been especially strong lately.
Kraus said there was never any reason to consider postponing or canceling the Wisconsin event, which was scheduled for Friday through Sunday. One of the few vendors there with semiautomatic weapons, Scott Kuhl of Janesville, Wis., bristled at any suggestion that he temporarily stop selling semiautomatic weapons because of the Connecticut shooting.
"When a plane crashes, should they shut down the airline for six months?" Kuhl said. "This is my business; this is my livelihood."
Jared Hook, 40, who came to the show looking for a .223-caliber gun for coyote hunting, said he was glad vendors did not back away after Newtown.
"If anything, there's a lot more interest in guns now because of the shooting," Hook said. "People want them for protection, and it's good that they still have access to them."
Joel Koehler, a Pennsylvania gun dealer, said a few dealers have dropped out of a show this weekend in the Pocono Mountains, but only "because they have nothing to sell. They are out of inventory."
"The gun sales have been crazy. They are going through the roof," he said.
Koehler said he has felt no pressure to cancel his shows in Pennsylvania.
"The shows are going on," he said. "Nobody's said to us that we can't have them."
President Barack Obama has urged Congress to vote rapidly on measures that he says a majority of Americans support: a ban on the sale of military-style assault weapons; a ban on the sale of high-capacity magazines; and required criminal background checks for all gun buyers by removing loopholes that cover some sales, such as at gun shows in states that don't currently require checks.
Pennsylvania Gov. Tom Corbett on Friday said he would consider a radio-show caller's suggestion that gun shows be banned on publicly owned property, such as the Pennsylvania Farm Show Complex in Harrisburg. But he also noted that the complex is open to all businesses.
While government officials take a harder look at gun shows, organizers remain adamant that they run safe, legal businesses. There is no central government database on how guns used in crimes are obtained.
The Brady Campaign, which advocates for stricter state and federal gun laws, has long pushed to close the so-called "gun show loophole" by forcing every state to require background checks of buyers at the shows. They note that three of the weapons used in the Columbine attack were bought by someone who went to a gun show that didn't require a background check. Seventeen states require an extensive background check, according to the campaign.
And in the wake of Newtown is an emboldened group of advocates, like Susan Steer of Saratoga Springs, a 46-year-old married mother of three who started a petition seeking to cancel the local gun show. Steer said she'll continue to push for banning gun shows at the taxpayer-supported venue.
"For many of us," she said, "the shooting in Sandy Hook was the tipping point for taking some action."
___
Hill reported from Albany, N.Y. Contributing to this report were Dinesh Ramde in Evansville, Wis.; Michael Rubinkam in Allentown, Pa.; Peter Jackson in Harrisburg, Pa.; and Lisa Rathke in Montpelier, Vt.
Smart gun technology is the logical fix for most of our gun troubles. Gun shows should be all about new technology making guns safer.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_Gun
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/digital/fact-vs-fiction/fact-vs-fiction-the-truth-about-skyfalls-weapons-14544466
 @TimBurr Those products can be found at gun shows a hell of a lot easier than they can be found at bake sales or anti-gun protests.
I think they need to have ATF officers at every gun show to ensure that only appropriately screened and licensed people can buy guns. Even better, lets not have gun shows anymore and stop the fetish of owning guns. Yes its a fetish.Â
 @peckishpete They should also ban homosexual nightclubs because homophobes think that these establishments spread AIDS. Yes, its a fetish.
@peckishpete hmmm well in Oregon you have to pass a background check no matter where you purchase a firearm. An ATF officer would add nothing to the equation. Next clearly uneducated idea?
@Jeepers I've purchased all of my firearms from a L.E friend as well as large amounts of ammo and have never undergone a background check.You never know,I could be a bat **** crazy homicidal maniac.
 @noneofyourbizzness Bat **** crazy -- do I know you?  =)Â
Okay cool, so you didn't buy your supposed firearms at a gun show like we were talking about.... What's your point?
They got caught up in the anti-gun paranoia and hysteria that is still sweeping the country after Connecticut, the same paranoia that caused Dick's Sporting Goods and Cheaper Than Dirt, among others, to quit selling, for a time, certain types of semi-automatic rifles a.k.a. AR-15's.
We're so worried about guns killing our children after they are born and yet thousands get killed before they we born by abortion providing doctors. Let's ban those doctors as well.
 @scoreboard One slight difference:  One is legal, one is not.  Dang pesky laws.
 @Sundowner Since when are guns illegal?
 @scoreboard Killing children, whether with a gun or bare hands, is illegal.  Terminating an unwanted pregnancy has been legal since the Supreme Court ruling of January 22, 1973.  Should I assume that since the procedure sticks in your craw, you've adopted a number of unwanted children placed for adoption? Â
 @scoreboard More people are killed by hammers, but, just like homophobes blaming AIDS on gays, hoplophobes blame violence on guns. Rational thought has nothing to do with it.
 @Playanekes  @scoreboard Interesting comparison. It's just that the number of people in the U.S. who die from HIV/AIDS is nearly DOUBLE that of those killed by guns. Why aren't we doing anything about THAT??
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Medical errors kill at least TEN TIMES (up to 17 times by some accounts) as many as guns. Where's the outrage?
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Let's not even get started on the genocides and civilian "megadeaths" that have occurred following various ever-increasing "reasonable" gun control schemes - whereby one elite class of people disarmed all the others.
 @Playanekes That's my point....
The national media wants you to know about gun shows, but--just like the thwarted mall shooting in San Antonio in December--they don't want you to know about this:
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http://www.wsbtv.com/news/news/local/woman-hiding-kids-shoots-intruder/nTm7s/
"A woman hiding in her attic with children shot an intruder multiple times before fleeing to safety Friday."
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"The woman then shot him five times, but he survived, Chapman said. He said the woman ran out of bullets but threatened to shoot the intruder if he moved. "She's standing over him, and she realizes she's fired all six rounds. And the guy's telling her to quit shooting," Chapman said..."
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 @Playanekes Valid point (no sarcasm). Guns can be used for defense. And they don't have to be semi-automatic assault-style rifles to accomplish that.
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Also, since Newtown, over 400 people in this country have died from gun-related violence. The vast majority were not invading homes or getting ready to shoot up movie theaters. A couple were firemen (an AR-15 was involved in that one). The notion that we can't improve upon this situation holds no water.
 @Max Quinn  @Playanekes Yup the majority were not home invasions or theater shooters, most of them were inner-city youth, some too young to legally have guns, living in cities with strict gun laws, involved in gangs and the drug trade (drugs which are also illegal).
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Oh, and the firemen were in a state with some of the strictest gun laws in the country, among which was AWB, even more strict than Connecticut. That shooter was already a prohibited person who had previously murdered with a hammer. In that case the straw purchaser has also been arrested and the law is working as designed.
@ChrisJ82 @Playanekes While I'm certain that you didn't just make that up, could you point to your source? The part about most of them being inner city youth in the drug trade.
"There is no central government database on how guns used in crimes are obtained." That fact alone is mind-boggling. There NEEDS to be such a database. Close the ##*#@@@ gun show loophole and let's get serious about gun control. Presently, it is almost non-existent.
@felines99 Feinstein is about to introduce legislation that would make an old Beretta the same classification as an M-60, and ban the production of magazines. The kinds of handguns used by police officers and security guards would now be considered "military assault weapons" because they have detachable magazines and pistol grips. Meanwhile, a woman in Texas used a weapon that they wanted to ban in the 1980s (a "Saturday Night Special" revolver) while nobody had any problem at all with Berettas. Straight from the horse's mouth:http://www.feinstein.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/assault-weapons
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 @Playanekes  @felines99  Feinstein is one of the biggest anti-gun zealots out there. But yet she has a concealed carry permit and has packed.Â
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âI know the sense of helplessness that people feel. I know the urge to arm yourself because thatâs what I did. I was trained in firearms. I walked to the hospital when my husband was sick. I carried a concealed weapon and I made the determination if somebody was going to try and take me out, I was going to take them with me,â said Feinstein.
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So, not only is Feinstein an anti-gun zealot, she is also a hypocrite.
 @theobserver  @Playanekes  @felines99 Gun control is just for the "little people".
I support gun control. I do not however support a crazy women such as Feinstein and her crackpot approach to gun control. She wants do disarm poor Americans. Anybody with half a brain should be against her....... That's where you come in......
 @theobserver  @Playanekes So what??? Obama's not asking us to support Feinstein, but to support gun control.
 @Playanekes  @felines99 Fine with me.
 @Conspirator  @Playanekes I'm fine with LE having high-capacity magazines. I'm fine with our troops having them in time of war. Getting back to 2013, what, exactly, is your POINT???
 @Conspirator  @felines99  @Playanekes WooHoo!  Conspirator is the first to invoke Godwin's Law (for today). Â
 @felines99  @Playanekes You are correct. Hitler's troops had high capacity magazines, as did Stalin's and chairman Mao's. The three racked up an impressive death toll of about 60 million innocent and unarmed civilian victims. Though, admittedly not ALL these were gun deaths. I'm sure you're "fine with that."
Firearms are like number 10 on the list of what kills Americans. Why don't you go after the other 9 deadlier things then we can talk about this. Oh that right, because this is what your little timid brain is currently afraid of......
 @Playanekes USE OF CAPS NOT NECESSARY!!!
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On balance, many, many more innocent lives have been lost because of high-capacity magazines, than lives have been saved from their use. So yeah, fine with me.
 @felines99 http://www.wsbtv.com/news/news/local/woman-hiding-kids-shoots-intruder/nTm7s/
@felines99
That's not something to be proud of. You completely missed the point.
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A woman in Georgia used a weapon that people like you wanted to ban in the 1980s, along with Doberman dogs, because "Mr. Saturday Night Special wasn't good for nothin' but putting a man six feet in a hole." This woman used it to save her family--fortunately it wasn't banned by liberals--as my wife might have used our Springfield, but she almost didn't have enough bullets, which would have put her family at his mercy and rage had she not actually stopped him.
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FINE WITH YOU, THOUGH, HUH!!  I'M SURE THAT'S PERFECTLY FINE WITH YOU.
Shows? SHOWS?? My ass!
 @Mechanic Yeah. I go to gun shows to look at makes and models of guns I've never seen before, and not necessarily to purchase them.Â
I didn't buy any guns because I can't pull a trigger with a hoof.
Stock up folks. There's a modest chance that we might enact some rational controls on assault-style firearms in the coming months... With hysteria like that running rampant, you'd better rush out to the nearest gun show and max out your credit cards to fill your basement with all the guns and ammo it will hold - that's the only reasonable thing to do!
 @Max Quinn More than modest:
http://www.feinstein.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/assault-weapons
 @Playanekes  @Max Quinn I guess I mean the ones that have a chance of passing.
@Max Quinn I got mine a long time ago, now everything is double the price...............
 @Max Quinn Yup, because collectively punishing innocent people who had nothing to do with the extraordinarily rare crazy guy, is your moral high horse.
@ChrisJ82 Also, Nancy Lanza was an innocent gun owner, too.
 @Max Quinn  @ChrisJ82 It's not because she followed the law the massacre happened.....it's because her son BROKE the law by stealing the guns and shooting everyone!
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You are blaming the law abiding citizen, not the one that actually broke the law and committed the crimes!
@ChrisJ82 Here's another report that credits gun control laws with reducing gun-related deaths: http://injuryprevention.bmj.com/content/10/5/280.full
@Jeepers The AR-15 was the primary weapon. http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/18/us/connecticut-lanza-guns/index.html
@ChrisJ82 An inconclusive study. Admits at the end that the increase in assault may be due to increased willingness to report them. And that homicides by firearm have declined. Here's another for 2011. Violent crime still going down. A total of 260 homicide, 13% by firearm. http://www.aic.gov.au/documents/0/B/6/%7B0B619F44-B18B-47B4-9B59-F87BA643CBAA%7Dfacts11.pdf
He also only used pistols on his attack on the school. But here we are discussing on banning assault weapons how does that make any sense?
 @Max Quinn  @ChrisJ82 I see you didn't look at what my source was :-).
@ChrisJ82 @Max Quinn I'm going to guess that you are relying on discredited study for your conclusions. The CSM story was accurate: http://www.slate.com/blogs/crime/2012/12/16/gun_control_after_connecticut_shooting_could_australia_s_laws_provide_a.html. http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/08/02/did-gun-control-work-in-australia/. Thanks for the new word, though. I'd never heard of hoplophobia.
 @JTesla  @scoreboard I'm pretty sure I've heard of cases where a live in child (referring to relationship not age) takes a car without permission, and almost certainly so when taken by force, that it's considered theft. And any crimes that child commits with the car are not held against the parents, but are considered solely the acts of the child.
 @Max Quinn I'm sure you had visions of machine guns mowing things down, but that's just your little hoplophobic nightmare.
 @Max Quinn So that CSM article appears to have none of their facts correct. Homicide went up 3.2% immediately following the ban, but I was wrong, it has not stayed up, though their numbers are so low year to year variations can be substantial +21% in 01-02, to -18% in 04-05, but that otherwise flat line with variations indicates that the firearm ban had zero effect and criminals simply substituted tools or ignored the law. Of course other violent crimes have been on the rise, and quite substantially so!  http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/current%20series/tandi/341-360/tandi359/view%20paper.html Oh, and of course they've had several mass murders post '96 as well, so the claim they've had none is bogus.
 @scoreboard Now you're just making stuff up. The "simple concept" you seem to think I can't get is not the point I was making, it is something you made up. Everything after "You probably think" is stuff you made up.
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For weeks we've heard the argument that he stole guns, it's a silly argument that does not benefit the point you are making at all. The mall shooter stole a gun, the kid we are discussing made use of a tool that was in his home. Had he lived he wouldn't be charged with theft just as he would not have been charged with using his mothers toaster to heat up poptarts.
 @JTesla Excuse me? A thief is a thief. If your child lives in your home and steals money from you is that OK? No. He stole the guns, thus he obtained them illegally. His actions were premeditated (in all likelihood).Â
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As I've said before, if a criminal or psychopath wants a gun, he'll get one if he's determined enough. Gun restrictions or bans aren't going to stop them. I can't help but shake my head at the fact that you can't seem to get this simple concept.
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You probably think guns kill people as well. Just in case you aren't aware of it, it takes human interaction for that gun to kill someone.
 @scoreboard He lived at home with his mother, sure technically he stole her breakfast cereal that morning too, but it's not like he broke into someone else's home and took the guns. He went to the gun range and shot the guns with his brother and mother often. In his mind they were probably the families guns.
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So much emphasis is put on him obtaining them "illegally", and that argument doesn't add anything to the discussion.
 @JTesla Hello! He stole them from him mother. Last I heard theft was a crime.
 @scoreboard How did he obtain the guns illegally? If he had used them to defend his home from an armed intruder would he be charged with illegally obtaining the guns used for his homes defense?
 @Max Quinn  @ChrisJ82 But did she kill anyone? No she didn't. Her son obtained the guns illegally.
@ChrisJ82 Mighty sporting of you. I sure hope the squirrels and rabbits - I mean predators - aren't armed!
@Max Quinn Right. She obviously correctly assessed her son's condition and, just as obviously, kept all her firearms safely locked up where a crazy person couldn't get to to them.
 @Max Quinn Ah the ever infamous gun-hyphen-crime metrics. I'm heading out the door now for some predator hunting with my AR. I'll be back later with some citations (unlike your article) for crime stats.
Whoops. Denying facts won't help you: http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Asia-Pacific/2012/1224/Could-the-US-learn-from-Australia-s-gun-control-laws
 @Max Quinn  @ChrisJ82 No they went from no mass murders, to 1 mass murder, to none again. The gun ban had no effect on that, it's just their natural rate. And murder rates have not gone down, they've drastically risen, as have all their violent crimes.
@ChrisJ82 You a mind reader? I don't remember ever portraying CT gun laws as ideal. Anyway, ever heard of Australia? They banned semi-automatic weapons and went from one mass shooting a year to none in 14 years. Murder rates and suicide rates have also declined since the ban. Maybe you should go Down Under so you can explain to them how their gun laws had nothing to do with that...
 @Max Quinn  @ChrisJ82 Uhuh, and the fact that Connecticut is the model for the laws you are advocating for doesn't disturb you in the least? You know that whole thing about those laws don't have the supposedly desired effect, exactly in the way that pro-gun people said that they wouldn't work. That makes you sound very disingenuous about what desired effect you're after.
@ChrisJ82 The point is that a person who followed our current gun laws not only died by gunfire but inadvertently supplied the guns used in a massacre. Indicates that there might be a problem with the laws when following them leads to that result.
 @Max Quinn  @ChrisJ82 What's your point? I'll readily admit that I don't know anything about Connecticut's laws on involuntary institutionalization or what Nancy Lanza did to get her son help/institutionalized, which means I don't know enough to blame the state or demonize her. Let alone how that could be contorted to demonize the tens of millions of other gun owners who had nothing at all to do with what happened.
@ChrisJ82 Why should there be speed limits? I can drive fast really well. In fact, the faster I go, the better I drive! I've never been in an accident. By having speed limits you are punishing all the innocent drivers like me just because some people drive faster than they should.
 @Max Quinn  @ChrisJ82 Yet even though we" regulate the manufacturing, ownership and use of them" cars still kill more people than guns! Â
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Looks like those government regulations are doing their job, eh Max? Â Great point!
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@scoreboard @Max Quinn @ChrisJ82 I feel the same way about abortion and gay marriage.If you don't approve then for Christi's sake don't have one.I don't want anti gun advocates or fundamentalist Christians infringing on my personal liberties.
Taxing guns out of existence...sounds about right, they've already done it with the ammo I guess......
 @Jeepers That was in reply to treating guns like cars, and in particular the allusions to cars being made safer due to regulation. Which is analogous to things like being drop safe for guns, and are the exact sort of things gun manufacturers are insanely over zealous about to begin with.
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Since they're already doing all these things, the only purpose is to inconvenience them with the extra cost in time and money of dealing with additional government bureaucracy.
Wait what? Defects and user safety? What is that about? I don't know what a good answer is, but I do know that a bunch of politicians aren't going to make me pay over $2,000 to decide whether or not I can keep the firearms I've owned for several years now. Here's the second and biggest problem with this. The fact is the majority of Americans do not want more restrictions on "assault" weapons.
 @Max Quinn  @B Smizzle So besides simply adding to government bureaucracy, and the associated costs of dealing with that bureaucracy, what do you hope to achieve with "safety regulations" on guns? Gun manufacturers are incredibly risk adverse, and go way above and beyond in regards to manufacturing defects and user safety.
I'll debate with you anytime. I just get defensive when something this crazy has a chance of happening.
 @Playanekes  @ChrisJ82 Good point. If gun owners would offer some suggestions other than arming first grade teachers, I'd be all ears. But if they abstain from the debate, it will go on without them.
 @B Smizzle  @ChrisJ82 You know, the car analogy is becoming the Godwin's Law of the gun control argument...
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But, just fun, maybe we should try regulating the manufacturing, ownership, and use of cars and see if those regulations make them safer without having to ban them. Oh, wait...
 @Max Quinn  @ChrisJ82 If you don't want an assault rifle or some other kind of gun, don't buy one. As I've said many times before, banning a gun won't keep it out of a killer's hands. He'll just get it illegally if he's determined enough.
 @Max Quinn  @ChrisJ82 Speed limits are set by the design of the road and the road engineers themselves. Not by people like Feinstein.
 @Max Quinn  @ChrisJ82 Cars kill more people than guns....why aren't cars outlawed? Â
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"Â Why should there be speed limits?"
Ever heard of the Autobahn?  Â
@ChrisJ82 @Max Quinn That is not quite the dumbest thing I have ever heard, but, boy howdy, it is right up there. It's just like what all drunks and addicts will say: "Well, some people might have a problem with it, but I can handle it. I'm special." You can't handle it, because it is too deceptive and too dangerous.
 @Max Quinn  @ChrisJ82 I wouldn't be surprised to find out there's an effect of illusion of safety by having a posted sign saying you can go faster.It's anecdotal but I see this every day on my commute. On the road with unobstructed speed limit signs, everyone tries to go that speed regardless of conditions. I make a right hand turn onto another street with an obstructed speed limit sign and all the drivers seem to drive according to conditions, and all universally slow 10-15mph where the road narrows, despite no changes in signage.
@ChrisJ82 another thing that's not complicated is the fact that when speed limits increase so do fatalities. The number of accidents remains pretty constant, but the accidents that happen are more deadly.
 @Max Quinn  @ChrisJ82 Speed limits are a perfect analogy, in that they are really stupid. Being one size fits all inconveniences drivers like you, and sets up stupid drivers for accidents when conditions aren't ideal. One should driver according to current conditions and their skill level. Really, these things aren't that complicated.