Utah town makes arming every household a top priority
SPRING CITY, Utah (AP) - Officials in a small Utah town want to make sure every head of household has a firearm and knows how to use it, and they want to give school teachers training with guns too.
Spring City Councilman Neil Sorensen first proposed an ordinance requiring a gun in every household in the town of 1,000. The rest of the council scoffed at making it a requirement, but they unanimously agreed to move forward with an ordinance "recommending" the idea.
The council also approved funding to offer concealed firearms training Friday to the 20 teachers and administrators at the local elementary school.
"It sends a statement that criminals better think twice," Sorensen told The Associated Press on Tuesday. "If a teacher would have had a concealed weapon in Sandy Hook, I think the death loss would have been fewer. If sane, trained people had guns, they could have shot back."
The measure, which will go before the full council in February for further review, seems to have the support of the council's five members and many residents in the farming community about 90 miles south of Salt Lake City.
But school administrators don't think arming teachers is wise, and they are not encouraging teachers to participate in Friday's training.
"The more guns you have in the school, the more dangerous it is," said Leslie Keisel, superintendent of the North Sanpete School District.
Councilman Noel Bertelson said making guns in every house mandatory was too much, but he agrees the town would be safer if everyone was armed. With only a part-time police force, he said, response time is not like it is in a big city.
"If a person is able to take care of themselves for a while, it would probably be a good thing," Bertelson said.
The community is still reeling from the double-murder on New Year's Eve 2011 of an elderly couple in nearby Mount Pleasant. Sorensen said what used to be a peaceful, quiet town has been sullied by increasing criminal activity.
Thefts of metal for scrap and other property also have become a problem, Councilman Boyd Mickel said.
"We are kind of tired of people breaking in and taking stuff," said Mickel, explaining why he voted to urge every house to have a gun.
Timm Thompson, a coal miner and father of four girls who lives in Spring City, backs the council's measure.
"People think small towns are a good place to live," Thompson said. "But there is more crime and drugs than you can imagine."
Thompson, who owns 78 guns he keeps locked in a safe, doesn't want teachers to act as police officers. He said some kids are "hooligans" and could overpower teachers for the guns.
Sisters Katy Harmer and Caroline Lott, however, say arming teachers would make them feel better about sending their children to the Spring City Elementary School. The co-owners of the town's coffee shop, Das Coffee, said most Spring City residents keep guns for hunting, leaving only a handful without weapons.
Angela Johnson, owner of the Sinclair gas station, said she doesn't like guns but backs the council's proposal.
"If criminals knew they would be fired against, I think it would cause pause," Johnson said.
Because the Spring City Council is stopping short of a law requiring gun ownership, elected officials won't run afoul of state law, former Utah Attorney General Mark Shurtleff told KSL.com.
Shurtleff said that when the Washington County town of Virgin enacted a local law in 2000 requiring households to keep guns, he warned them against trying to enforce the measure.
Spring City leaders say they got the idea from a city in Georgia that passed a similar law. In 1982, Kennesaw, Ga., made headlines by requiring heads of households to own a gun and ammunition. On its website, Kennesaw boasts that its burglary rate declined after the law took effect.
Teachers at Spring City Elementary School won't be required to attend Friday's concealed weapons training, but can if they wish, Principal Mark Thomas said.
"I don't think there is anything wrong about being educated how to use a gun," Thomas said.
But Thomas doesn't believe having more armed teachers would necessarily prevent or mitigate the damage in mass shootings. Utah law allows teachers to have concealed weapon in classrooms, but the district doesn't advocate for that, Thomas said.
"By bringing weapons into school, are we creating more problems than we are solving?" he asked. "It could create a new problem. We don't want to deal with that problem."
The proposed ordinance will be discussed at the Feb. 7 City Council meeting. A public hearing will be held three weeks later.
Spring City Councilman Neil Sorensen first proposed an ordinance requiring a gun in every household in the town of 1,000. The rest of the council scoffed at making it a requirement, but they unanimously agreed to move forward with an ordinance "recommending" the idea.
The council also approved funding to offer concealed firearms training Friday to the 20 teachers and administrators at the local elementary school.
"It sends a statement that criminals better think twice," Sorensen told The Associated Press on Tuesday. "If a teacher would have had a concealed weapon in Sandy Hook, I think the death loss would have been fewer. If sane, trained people had guns, they could have shot back."
The measure, which will go before the full council in February for further review, seems to have the support of the council's five members and many residents in the farming community about 90 miles south of Salt Lake City.
But school administrators don't think arming teachers is wise, and they are not encouraging teachers to participate in Friday's training.
"The more guns you have in the school, the more dangerous it is," said Leslie Keisel, superintendent of the North Sanpete School District.
Councilman Noel Bertelson said making guns in every house mandatory was too much, but he agrees the town would be safer if everyone was armed. With only a part-time police force, he said, response time is not like it is in a big city.
"If a person is able to take care of themselves for a while, it would probably be a good thing," Bertelson said.
The community is still reeling from the double-murder on New Year's Eve 2011 of an elderly couple in nearby Mount Pleasant. Sorensen said what used to be a peaceful, quiet town has been sullied by increasing criminal activity.
Thefts of metal for scrap and other property also have become a problem, Councilman Boyd Mickel said.
"We are kind of tired of people breaking in and taking stuff," said Mickel, explaining why he voted to urge every house to have a gun.
Timm Thompson, a coal miner and father of four girls who lives in Spring City, backs the council's measure.
"People think small towns are a good place to live," Thompson said. "But there is more crime and drugs than you can imagine."
Thompson, who owns 78 guns he keeps locked in a safe, doesn't want teachers to act as police officers. He said some kids are "hooligans" and could overpower teachers for the guns.
Sisters Katy Harmer and Caroline Lott, however, say arming teachers would make them feel better about sending their children to the Spring City Elementary School. The co-owners of the town's coffee shop, Das Coffee, said most Spring City residents keep guns for hunting, leaving only a handful without weapons.
Angela Johnson, owner of the Sinclair gas station, said she doesn't like guns but backs the council's proposal.
"If criminals knew they would be fired against, I think it would cause pause," Johnson said.
Because the Spring City Council is stopping short of a law requiring gun ownership, elected officials won't run afoul of state law, former Utah Attorney General Mark Shurtleff told KSL.com.
Shurtleff said that when the Washington County town of Virgin enacted a local law in 2000 requiring households to keep guns, he warned them against trying to enforce the measure.
Spring City leaders say they got the idea from a city in Georgia that passed a similar law. In 1982, Kennesaw, Ga., made headlines by requiring heads of households to own a gun and ammunition. On its website, Kennesaw boasts that its burglary rate declined after the law took effect.
Teachers at Spring City Elementary School won't be required to attend Friday's concealed weapons training, but can if they wish, Principal Mark Thomas said.
"I don't think there is anything wrong about being educated how to use a gun," Thomas said.
But Thomas doesn't believe having more armed teachers would necessarily prevent or mitigate the damage in mass shootings. Utah law allows teachers to have concealed weapon in classrooms, but the district doesn't advocate for that, Thomas said.
"By bringing weapons into school, are we creating more problems than we are solving?" he asked. "It could create a new problem. We don't want to deal with that problem."
The proposed ordinance will be discussed at the Feb. 7 City Council meeting. A public hearing will be held three weeks later.
Maybe the people of the United States should look more into their history to get an understanding of the 2nd amendment.http://voxvocispublicus.homestead.com/Battle-of-Athens.html
The bottom line here is that they will decide how to handle the situation at the local level. I applaud that and have always been an advocate for local control of everything.
Sorry, when did this Second Amendment change from the Right to bear arms to a requirement?! Â It is bad enough people claim this right before the right to life or safety from other folks Bearing arms...but to require it sounds like we headed right on into dictatorship. Â And, since most mass shooters commit suicide, the notion that someone Else might kill them probably is nowhere as serious a deterrent as people might hope..
It sounds like they are arming the criminals as well.
 Hmmm, my new home may be in Spring City, UT.Â
Utah, why am I not surprised?
Outstanding!!! I see no problem at all with this. The key here the training and knowledge.  The only ones who would have problems would be the queen anti-gun zealot Feinstein, Blumberg of New york and all the rest of the anti-gun people who would like to see nothing more than the people of this country dis-armed and the 2nd Amendment abolished. I think Oregon should follow suit.Â
An interesting article here:
http://www.guncite.com/swissgun-kopel.html
 @theobserver You see no problem?  No problem in possibly being required to bear arms?  REQUIRED?  Where the Hell is our Freedom of choice is That law passes?!  People sit there screaming about our right to bear arms (which was an AMENDMENT, NOT in the actual constitution itself)  but see no problem with Forcing this on people, regardless of religion, or personal belief?  Why don't you look up the word "Dictator" you hypocrite.Â
 @theobserver I agree completely!
It's about time this is being discussed because any thieves or crooks will think twice about breaking into any house where the owners have guns and will know that they will be blown away .... notice I said blown away because the crooks can't come back later and sue the home owner for protecting his property, make sure the intruder is dead, this will send a message no uninvited person likes to hear.
@parrot456 With 47% to 50% of US households having guns, there is no indications that crooks think twice. Most crooks are too dumb to think once, let alone twice. The possibility of there being a gun is not a deterrent, and the use of a gun is only a deterrent to the crook it was used on.
This ordinance requiring a gun in every household is as unconstitutional as the disarming of America!
 @Freedom1267 Well put.  And, no one is talking "Disarming America"; the main focus has been getting the automatic weapons out of the hands of most citizens.  No one has any legitimate need for those weapons and that is hardly disarming the country.  But thankfully you Do see the completely hypocrisy of demanding guns in each house in the name of Freedom!!!
 @Freedom1267 If you don't like it ...... leave.
 @Freedom1267  I'd say it ranks right up there with requiring citizens to buy health insurance.
Obama is gearing up for an executive order on guns (ala Hitler, Stalin etc etc) so that might put a damper on this towns plans.
@TimBurr Another Alex jones follower.
 @Ghetto Baby  @TimBurr  Do you mean the Alex Jones who was threatened with death on national television while the host sat there and laughed about it?
 @ClackaSam Not much of a defense of Alex Jones, if that is what you were going for.
@TimBurr Are you on meds for paranoid schizophrenia? If not, you should be.
 @peckishpete  @TimBurr  Try this: âThe president is going to act,â vowed Mr. Biden, whom Mr. Obama tapped to head the task force on the issue. âThere are executive orders, executive action that can be taken. We havenât decided what that is yet. But weâre compiling it all with the help [of] the attorney general and all the rest of the Cabinet members as well as legislative action we believe is required.â Maybe Crazy Joey is off his meds.
 @peckishpete  @TimBurr Look who's talking.
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http://freedomoutpost.com/2013/01/gun-control-dictator-style-tyrants-who-banned-firearms-before-slaughtering-the-people/
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 @TimBurr  @peckishpete That can be a tough question to answer in a schizophrenia debate.
The problem with REQUIRING a gun in every home is that you are effectively guaranteeing that at some point you arm a crazy person who might otherwise not have had access to a firearm. Â
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Unless you likewise mandate safety training, gun safes, background checks, while funding same for those who were never interested in owning a firearm to begin with, it's not at all clear to me that you've improved safety. Â
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This isn't a rant from an anti-gun person, which I am not. Â But some folks shouldn't have guns, my mentally ill mother and brother coming to mind immediately. Â If they haven't gone to the trouble of getting their hands on one, we shouldn't jam one into their open palm.
 @Festivus Ya there is a simple statistics issue with doing that and that if you have a large enough town you are almost certainly going to find a mentally unstable person. With a town of 1000 people chances are pretty good one or more of them is not all that stable.
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On the flip side though if only a small percentage are armed and carry with a CHL and that one unstable person already has access to gun which is extremely likely. Then they are ripe for another tragedy.
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So arming everyone and training new CHL holders won't stop the first person from getting shot but it likely would stop the next 10 from ever happening which is not likely to happen today.
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So I really only agree with your statement if you make the assumption that the mentally unstable or not currently armed with weapons already.
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Since there is really no reasonable and realistic check in place for that other than answering yes on the questionnaire when you buy a gun, which no mentally ill person would probably do, odds are pretty high account of 1000 at least one of them is armed.
 @FreedomRocks  @Festivus I don't have statistics on this, so I can only offer anecdotal observation.  Neither of the two mentally ill people I know are armed.  One of them, with severe bipolar issues, would likely have already used a gun on himself if he'd had the opportunity.  My grandfather ended his own life with his handgun when all he really needed was better pain control. Â
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Will the homicide rate go up with enforced gun ownership? Â I think so, but I can't prove it. Â Will the successful suicide rate climb? Â Almost certainly.
 @Festivus  @FreedomRocks show me the link that shows one of the mass killers bought there stuff from a private party,,, You can't Festivus so why fix whats not broken...
 @FreedomRocks  @Festivus "Unfortunately, current federal law requires criminal background checks only for guns sold through licensed firearm dealers, which account for just 60% of all gun sales in the United States. A loophole in the law allows individuals not âengaged in the businessâ of selling firearms to sell guns without a licenseâand without processing any paperwork. That means that two out of every five guns sold in the United States change hands without a background check.Â
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Though commonly referred to as the âGun Show Loophole,â the âprivate salesâ described above include guns sold at gun shows, through classified newspaper ads, the Internet, and between individuals virtually anywhere.
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Unfortunately, only six states (CA, CO, IL, NY, OR, RI) require universal background checks on all firearm sales at gun shows. Three more states (CT, MD, PA) require background checks on all handgun sales made at gun shows. Seven other states (HI, IA, MA, MI, NJ, NC, NE) require purchasers to obtain a permit and undergo a background check before buying a handgun. Florida allows its counties to regulate gun shows by requiring background checks on all firearms purchases at these events. 33 states have taken no action whatsoever to close the Gun Show Loophole.
 @Festivus Magazine size limits for things like the AR-15 maybe for the extra large ones but I can swap magazines in mine in under 2 seconds so not sure how that is going to really help. I could also use my M1 grand which looks like a hunting rifle just as effectively with it's 8 round clips that are quick to reload.
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The issue here is the AR-15 looks scary and scares those who don't know guns even though non-scary looking ones can be just as lethal.
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In addition if you are watching the news recently you heard about the lady who had an intruder breaking your home. She hid in the closet with her kids and when he busted into the closet put five of the six rounds from her revolver into his chest. He was able to get up get to his car and drive a significant way down the street before becoming incapacitated.
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Had he chosen instead to attack her, which he may very well have done except he believed she still had more bullets in the gun, it could have been a very different scenario. You can bet money that lady wishes she would've had a Glock with a 15 round magazine rather than a revolver with a six round magazine at that point.
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I don't have a problem with background checks, and making personal transfers have to go through an FFL or requiring training as long as it does not add more government employees to run it (No gun DMV).
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As for the gun show loophole what are you referring to? The last gun show I was at last year you couldn't buy anything without going through the standard paperwork and background check and those selling and buying are all FFL licensed.
 @FreedomRocks Reasonable gun legislation doesn't equate to taking away everyone's weapons.  It should be hard to own an AR-15.  Magazine size limitations.  Closing the gun show loophole.  Background checks and personal accountability for when your crazy nephew gets his hands on your assault rifle. Â
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These are all things that we should at least be talking about that don't take away your guns but make it less likely or harder to off groups of people numbering in the dozens in one incident.
 @Festivus Ya I know someone who used a gun to do that as well. Very sad buy I would not take my neighbors or friends guns away from them just because I know someone may committed suicide with theirs.
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The solution here is not to take everyone's weapons to save a few but prevent those that are mentally ill from having easy access to them.
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However I believe it was the ACLU has helped create many of the mental-health problems that we have going on today by making it extremely difficult to impossible have someone committed for their own good.
"By bringing weapons into school, are we creating more problems than we are solving?" he asked. "It could create a new problem. We don't want to deal with that problem."
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And what would that problem be pray tell? That they would be able to stop a mass murder? That doesn't sound like a problem to me.
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As for "overpower teachers for the guns" it things are that bad then your town is in big trouble.
 @RalphCramden It's interesting that there are indoor rifle ranges for the indoor rifle and pistol teams at Salt Lake City high schools, but ignorant simpletons slobbering down the front of themselves can't realize that it's people like THEMSELVES we shouldn't trust with firearms, not the average Mormon school kid or teacher.
@RalphCramden .....regarding overpowering the teachers for the guns...if you are bent on killing a bunch of kids and teachers in a school and you have no intention of surviving the attack, then why on Earth would you be deterred by the knowledge that some or all of the teachers will have access to a gun?
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First of all, it's not like the gun would be in their purse, or in the desk drawer next to the stapler....there is no way administrators will allow "easy" access to a gun in any public classroom for the security reasons I mentioned...theft, student violence, etc.
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And remember, the gun of choice for mass murderers is a semi-automatic rifle that can fire off 30 rounds in a matter of seconds. How many people are going to die before someone gets their gun out and manages to take out the shooter? And what if they grab a student as a hostage? Is a teacher going to take steady aim under those circumstances? Hell no. Would they even chance hitting a kid? HELL no.
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So, please explain to me how having guns in schools makes anyone truly safer?
 @Solipsist01 Â
Well no guns in schools isn't making them safer now is it.
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If you look at many of the schools in the Portland metro area there are cops there almost every day. In case you are not aware of it they carry guns.
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When I was growing up we had guns in schools as kids brought their guns to the gun safety classes. I can't think of any cases where a student started shooting other students during those classes.
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We even had shooting clubs.
@RalphCramden ...considering the fact that mass shootings in schools are extremely rare, bringing guns into the schools is inviting everything from accidental shootings to gun theft to student on student shootings, etc.
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Sure, they may be better able to protect themselves if someone were to waltz in with an AR-15, but statistically it is FAR more likely that someone will die by accident from a gun in school than by a mass murderer.
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Worse yet, do you really trust that teachers themselves are universally stable individuals? Do you really trust that they themselves won't one day use the gun on a fellow teacher or administrator?
 @Solipsist01 Â
Are you kidding me?
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Do you really think that teachers are that unstable?
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Plus if they wanted to they could bring a gun into school, legally or illegally, and start shooting kids anyhow.
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Personally, while I think that teachers are falling down on the job in teaching our kids, I don't think they are any more mentally unstable that cops who carry guns all the time. In fact I think teachers are more reserved in their life than many cops I know.
 @Solipsist01  @RalphCramden "Worse yet, do you really trust that teachers themselves are universally stable individuals?"
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We trust them more than we trust you. If they want to sneak a handgun into a school they already can.In the meantime, isn't it ironic that at the Ronald Reagan federal building near Lloyd Center, the armed security in front of the day care carries the same kind of weapons that Joe Biden wants to ban, while people like you question whether these people are stable?What happens if one of those private armed security guards unhinges and shoots up the pre-school? Isn't it ironic that there is extra heavily-armed security around Sandy Hook elementary right now, while idiots in the media are blathering about whether it's safe, and Feinstein and Biden are trying to ban the weapons they carry, based on their OWN WEBSITE?You're dealing in "What Ifs."  The suck-your-thumb-and-pray plan has already failed many, many times, so, unless they're guarding federal buildings with muskets now, gun owners are done with hippiecrit philosophies.
@RalphCramden Way to go, Ralphie. Guns for everybody, right? You go, girl.
 @Mechanic  @RalphCramden What is that, some sort of weird, pointless, sexist ad hom attack? You're not attempting to demonstrate manhood, are you?
 @Mechanic  @RalphCramden At one point in our history everyone did own one or more guns and carried them openly for all to see.
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It doesn't seem to me from reading our history books that they ran around killing each other like nuts other than a few rather bold and crazy criminals which still seems to be the case today.
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So your point to Ralph is what? History is not a good indicator of how things might work out in the future?
 @Playanekes  @FreedomRocks  @Mechanic  @RalphCramden That would be a great story if John Wilkes Booth hadn't been shot through the neck in a barn. Â
 @Festivus  @FreedomRocks  @Mechanic  @RalphCramden In the old days if you committed a murder they hanged you in public, a la John Wilkes Booth.What changed?Â
 @FreedomRocks  @Mechanic  @RalphCramden I agree.  Something is clearly different about our society today, both compared to our history and to other 1st world democracies.  There is no, ahem, silver bullet to fix this problem. Â
Note to self. Avoid this town at all costs. Sure don't want to be caught in the crossfire. Or perhaps the tax payers in this town should step and pay a little more for a police force.Â
 @peckishpete People say the same thing about Portland when it suits their political hangups. Get over it. There's just so many people dying in Utah by law-abiding crossfire these days, huh? Some people, on the other hand, are simply afraid of things that go BANG. Cope.
 @peckishpeteÂ
Funny. If you are afraid of law abiding citizens carrying guns then you should be really afraid of criminals carrying guns.
@RalphCramden I'm afraid of being in a situation where law abiding citizens start pulling out their guns when they perceive danger, and never having been in a situation where people are shooting, just pull out their guns in a panic and start shooting in all directions. Its easy to be macho while carrying a gun thinking your are going to save the world. But its an entirely different situation when you are actually confronted with a gunman bent on killing your and others. I think most law abiding citizens with guns would panic and began shooting aimlessly, unless you have been in the military. Most people have never been in a situation where its kill or be killed.
 @peckishpete Â
And where has this happened? Gosh, with over 300 million guns I can't find of any instance where a legal gun owner started pulling his gun out in a panic and started shooting.
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In Oregon alone there are 100,000 folks with guns permits (estimated). Please show me where even one of them paniced and started shooting people.
@Julie @Solipsist01 Lets put all the macho talk behind and talk realistically. Very few people have ever had to fire a gun to protect themselves and others let alone kill someone. You can fire the gun at a range etc. but when confronted by real danger I suspect most people would panic and react accordingly. In the process innocent people will get shot and killed. All this bravado is just too much.Â
 @Solipsist01 With certain probability - maybe, but much more likely a person who is payed to be alert would spot the bad guy approaching, pull out his radio to notify police and the principle to give them few extra seconds to react and then would approach the bad guy with his finger on the trigger guard.
 @peckishpete  @RalphCramden 'confronted with a gunman bent on killing you' - and you would prefer that in this situation I ...what? You would rather me not to have a gun when I am confronted by a gunmen who bent on killing me?
 @peckishpete  @RalphCramden Yeah, well, when that happens more than once a year we can have that discussion because in the meantime, innocent people keep getting shot because people follow the rules at malls and schools, and don't carry the tools to defend themselves. All based on theoreticals. How many kids have to die because hippies keep wanting to test their pacifist theories against psychotic criminals with weapons of -any- type?FAIL. Most people have never been attacked by crazies with AR-15s either, so, why is everybody spun up about them all of a sudden? What else did the shooters have in common? Zoloft? Prozac? Bath salts? Crystal Method songs on their iPods?
That's the irony about arming ordinary citizens in order to protect themselves from potential danger....it's only "potential" danger from the victim's perspective. There's nothing "potential" about the intentions of a killer. They know why they're there and they know what to prepare for.
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When people suggest that the answer is to have an armed officer in every school....I say that had there been an armed officer at Sandy Hook then the body count at Sandy Hook would've been 27 unstead of 26 because the FIRST victim would've been the officer.
@RalphCramden @peckishpete I am afraid of crazy people with guns and crazier people who think everybody should have one. Or fifty.
Mechanic.........and the person the administration put in charge of theis is CRAZY JOE Biden the VP.
 @Mechanic  @RalphCramden  @peckishpete You must not leave your house very often due to all that fear. since the concealed carry license rates in Oregon and Washington are such that you're pretty much surrounded by guns all the time.
 @Mechanic  @RalphCramden  @peckishpete So what he's really saying is he's already afraid he is surrounded by crazy people...maybe try a new town?