A controversial road to CRC, but is bridge height a roadblock?
SALEM, Ore. – During a marathon public hearing Monday, Oregon Gov. John Kitzhaber gave a "green light" to the proposed Interstate 5 Bridge replacement project. But some offered a cautionary "yellow light" while others wanted to put the brakes on the project altogether.
"Today you have before you a project that has been analyzed, criticized, downsized and looked at from every angle," Kitzhaber told lawmakers. "We have a construction-ready project that will increase mobility, reduce congestion and improve the transportation of goods throughout the state of Oregon and throughout the world."
But while the $3.5 billion project got a high-power pitch from the governor, many lined up after him to voice their concerns about it, including its proposed height.
Not once during the nearly five-hour hearing did lawmakers on the Joint Committee on the Interstate 5 Bridge Replacement Project halt the hearing for a break; instead, they waded into public testimony that was at times heated.
House Bill 2800 would officially make the state a supporter of replacing the current Interstate 5 Bridge spanning the Columbia River between Portland and Vancouver with a new one. The bill would also authorize the state’s $450 million share for the project, which Kitzhaber included in his budget.
But the success of the bill depends on a number of factors, including whether the U.S Coast Guard approves a permit for the bridge's height.
A past proposal required the bridge to be 95 feet high. But under that height, about 50 or 55 companies that moved cargo under the bridge would no longer be able to do so, said Kris Strickler, with the Oregon Department of Transportation, during invited testimony that preceded public comment. Now, with a proposed 116-foot high bridge, he said only four companies would be impacted.
He could not discuss the specific impacts to those companies or possible solutions because the state is currently in mitigation with them.
"We have started conversations with those (four users) – we have been for some time around mitigation options and operational options to allow us to continue moving forward with the permit application," he said.
Strickler said the permit application to the Coast Guard was submitted last month and the agency will take the next several months to evaluate it. He said his agency will continue to work with the Coast Guard and the companies impacted by the new bridge.
If those four companies lose their ability to pass their products beneath the bridge, jobs in Oregon and Washington could be negatively affected.
Greenberry Industrial is one of those companies that use the Columbia River to ship its products. Some of the things it makes are wave energy and oil-rigging structures that would be too tall to ship beneath the new bridge, according to CEO Jason Pond.
He told lawmakers that while he supports the bill, he said the bridge's proposed height would negatively affect his business that has over 500 employees. He said 300 jobs could be lost.
"(The 116-foot proposal) is a huge impediment for us," he said because the facility his company ships from is upriver from the bridge.
He said his company bids against companies in Texas and Louisiana, and "if the bridge gets built at its proposed height, we're out of the bidding business."
He urged lawmakers to consider a third-party study that would possibly include a lift bridge.
The bill also allows the state to partner with the state of Washington to implement tolls to raise money to help pay for the bridge.
Pat Egan, chair of the Oregon Transportation Commission, said during his invited testimony, the state has reached an agreement with Washington for tolling in the future.
The state expects revenue from tolling to be between $900 million to $1.3 billion.
According to the state, the bulk of the cost for the project will be $1.2 billion for the bridge, $850 million for light rail and over $1 billion for interchanges in both states.
The bill caps the amount of the project to just under $3.5 billion.
But several of those who testified argued cost overruns would be likely, and state Rep. Julie Parrish, R-West Linn, who sits on the joint committee, was especially concerned and questioned Egan and Strickler during their joint testimony about what would happen if there were overruns.
There was a noticeable pause between Egan and Strickler before Egan said: "Part of the rationale for putting that number into the legislation is we believe it is the upper end of what the overall project would be."
Gerald Fox, who said he was a retired transportation engineer, said during public testimony that lobbyists had overwhelmed "decision-makers with a blizzard of hype and misinformation" about the project.
"The financing plan is a looming disaster," he said. "It flies in the face of efforts to combat climate change, and it is certain to incur devastating cost overruns that are destined to become its legacy and burden Oregon taxpayers for decades to come."
But bridge proponents insisted legislators will be able to provide the necessary oversight to keep cost overruns from happening.
Former state lawmaker and current representative of the Construction Alliance, Rick Metzger, said the questions about accountability assume there won't be any oversight of the project.
"And that is totally untrue. ... As these questions evolve (regarding) construction ... your job and your responsibility, and I have every confidence that you will, (is) to continue to manage this project in the best interest of the state of Oregon," he said to lawmakers.
He also said the project will create "thousands and thousands" of construction jobs.
Opponents, however, said viable alternatives to the project were never really considered and that the public on many important points was left out of the process. Some also had concerns about the need and cost of light rail on the bridge.
Proponents, however, stressed that time is of the essence and if Oregon and Washington don't act, the states may lose out on crucial federal funding.
"The fact is the fiscal challenges the federal government is facing today, with the fiscal cliff and concern about the national debt, it's very unlikely that these kinds of resources are going to survive at this level into the future," Kitzhaber said. "And if we fail to act in 2013, it's very likely that other national projects will move up the queue and come up ahead of us."
Another public hearing is expected to take place next week.
The face of corruption!!!!
Â
Even the village idiot recognised a fellow corrupt elected public employee
Fix the pot holes
How high is the I-205 bridge? Why cant we make it the same and be done with it?
 @scared_citizen The clearance between the Glenn L Jackson bridge and the river is about 144 feet. If the businesses that need to move cargo are between the I-205 and I-5 bridges (some of the impacted businesses are located there), the clearance offered by the Glenn L Jackson is not all that relevant in this discussion.
@jbloe  I understand that there are businesses that are located between the 2 bridges but my point is that if they made the bridges the same height (apparently 144ft in this case), would it still present a problem to those 4 companies that would currently be impacted. If not then problem solved. Make the new bridge that high. It doesnt take a multi-million dollar investigation to see that. In addition, you cant go too high since you also have the airport nearby but again, if the height of the I-205 bridge is not too high, that would make that height okay for the I-5 bridge. Sounds pretty relevant to me.
Bridge height over what roadway? I thought the river went under it!
 With light rail designed to run UNDER the southbound traffic lanes,and the pedestrian / bicycle traffic lanes designed to run UNDER the northbound lanes,it's not hard to figure out what's impeding the bridge height !Â
> Gerald Fox, who said he was a retired transportation engineer, said during public testimony that lobbyists had overwhelmed "decision-makers with a blizzard of hype and misinformation" about the project.
Â
Very well said, Mr Fox....Â
Â
> "The financing plan is a looming disaster," he said. "It flies in the face of efforts to combat climate change, and it is certain to incur devastating cost overruns that are destined to become its legacy and burden Oregon taxpayers for decades to come."
Â
Although, I somehow doubt that he'll admit the irony of the preceeding statement when juxtaposed against this one. ROFLMAO.... Seriously, you just can't make this stuff up.Â
Â
Insofar as the 4 companies who are concerned about their business with the height of the span, the needs of the few, as it were. Find some property down river from the bridge and relocate your company. Heck, I'd even support state co-signing on funding for the move. For that matter, let your engineers go to work and figure out how to construct to accomodate the bridge, and use a secondary facility down river to complete it with any components that wouldn't clear the height. But, to hold up the entire project over 4 companies?
Â
Then, there's the whole light rail debacle. Vancouver says they don't want it, it exponentially increases the cost, and yet... it's a 'necessary' component of the project design???? WTF? As I've suggested many times before, the primary function of this essential component of infrastructure is vehicular traffic. An argument could be made for pedestrian/bike traffic being necessary as well. Design and build the bridge with the ability to be modified later to accomodate light rail.... But, that's assuming that we don't have ideological cults of personality making the decisions for us. Because, as we all know, us stoooopid voters just don't understand the 'big picture'. Just shut up and give them your money, They'll decide what to do with it.Â
Â
...and I'm really, really hoping that the tolls that seem to be all but inevitable dont end up being just the next defacto revenue source for OR/WA, Mult/Clark Co and Portland/Vancouver. If history is any example, once you allow a revenue stream to be created for a government body, it seldom goes away.Â
@MarkKpic  Just a thought, is the "light rail a necessary component of the project design" due to some Federal Funding requirement or is this just local politicians making this a design criteria? I dont know so I am just throwing it out there. I have lived in Beaverton, Tigard, Sherwood, Portland and Vancouver and from what I have seen happen to neighborhoods where the "crime train"....er, I mean TriMet's MAX (Metropolitan Area Express) Light Rail has stops, I wouldnt want it in my neighborhood either.
 @scared_citizen Two thoughts...
Â
1) Re:funding. I don't know for certain. The documentation regarding the funding is unavailible in it's entirety to the public in general unless I choose to go pay whatever costs are associated with the printing of it. Additionally, I'm sure that it's 2000 pages of legal-ese that few people other than a tenured law professor could unravel.Â
 It would not surprise me in the least if the (President Obama expeditied) CRC project had mass transit requirements attached to it in order to receive federal funding. Of course, this leads to the question of how much less the project would cost if those requirements were not in place. But, there I go again assuming that fiscal restraint is at all compatible with governmental projects.Â
Â
2)MAX. While there is ample evidence regarding the net effect on property values and crime along major cities (Portland included) transit corridors, my biggest gripe is the 'tail wagging the dog' mentality of Tri Met. I cannot tell you how enraged I would be if I were a resident of the transportation district when the board of directors feels that they have the final say over transportation projects rather than the voters of any given area. Of course, these individuals are appointed, rather than elected, so they do not answer to the residents and property owners of the areas they infect with their socio-political fallout. Funny how there's no plans for MAX to run through Council Crest, NW Heights, Forest Park (there, the taxpayer had to foot the bill to actually go UNDER the neighborhood) or Arlington Heights.  I would think that since MAX is such an essential component of any negiborhood, they would naturally want it to service those areas as well.
Â
But, then we come to realize that a good number of board members actually live in those areas.Â
Â
Hmmm.... Interesting.Â
Why is someone who used to be a "lawmaker" allowed to be involved in this process? This looks like the 'revolving door' between the industry and so-called 'public service'.
Â
As for a lift bridge, is that not one of the elements we're supposedly trying to get away from?
Â
As for the toll, that will largely be an additional tax levied against SW Washington people who work in Oregon or travel to Portland for any sort of business. Those of us who work in Oregon but live in Washington already pay Oregon income tax - a tax for which we get no representation.
Â
I Â don't argue against the bridge or crossing but we need to be fair to the people..
 @jbloe >'we need to be fair to the people..'
Â
Bwaaaaaaaahh, ha, ha, ha....Â
Â
No, joe. 'We' dont. 'We' just need to move ahead like the steamroller that the government is, implement this new defacto tax, and sell it by saying that it's 'fer the childruuun', or 'the environment', or will 'create jobs'. and pinky swear that we really intend to get rid of it once the debt is paid off.Â
Â
Then, 10 years down the road when everyone has forgotten those promises and the people who made them are long since retired and suckling at the PERS teet, there will be no recourse for the taxpayer when the tolls go up any time ODOT/WADOT or any county or municipal project is in need of additional funding.Â
Â
'fair', pssshhhh.... You talkin' crazy.Â
 @MarkKpic I know. I am awake now.  :)
"He (Jason Pond) urged lawmakers to consider a third-party study that would possibly include a lift bridge" No!!!
We have our own Dr. Death....the death of Oregon taxpayers!!1
This comment has been deleted
 @TheUglyTruth The problem with your precept is that it fails to take into consideration the idea that once desensitized to the idea of tolling to use public roadways, they can (and probably will) start popping up all over the state.Â
Â
...it would be unfair to just burdeon Vancouver and Portland residents. After all, the CRC will benefit us all, right?
Â
My biggest concern about allowing the tolls on the CRC is the potential for any municipality or county in the state to now come along and say "We'll just make it a toll road/bridge until we can pay back the money.". 10 years down the road, when it is finally paid back, the toll remains and the taxpayers have no recourse.Â
@TheUglyTruth What about legal marijuana?
This bridge replacement mess has taken to long and wasted so much money already. Build the damn thing already and scrap the money pit light rail. The 205 bridge is longer and wider and was built for a lot less if I recall and shorter amount of time.
They fail to mention light rail. A year ago that was the key reason for this project. Vancouver doesn't want the crime train and now they're in a big hurry to get their hands on the feds money.
Â
They have no concept of how much money $3.5 Billion is. Too much money for zero return. That's why we should all be terrified.
Unless there is a plan to reduce congestion at the rose quarter, any bridge project is a waste of money.
Â
The ones pushing hardest for the bridge are the (private) companies that would actually do the construction, followed by business interests. Interesting that the conservative politicians are opposing their main constituents (Big Business) on this, siding with the environmental crowd (irony is always relevant).
Â
As for the light rain noise, that is a red herring. Want to prevent the bad element from coming in (too late, really)? Post guards at the station and don't allow anyone without proof of fare to get off in Clark County. Of course, if they paid the fare, you're kind of stuck . . . . As for the time factor on the train, no one is being forced to take it. I've ridden MAX almost every work day for 15 years, and have never had a problem with crime, and I find it gets me to work faster then driving.
Â
By the way, both the FAA rules and the Coast Guard rules were adopted many years after the existing bridge was built. The existing bridge would not have been allowed under the current rules.
Leave it to the democrats to design a new bridge that doesn't have any more through lanes than the old bridge. And due to shear idiocy, didn't design it as high as the old bridge. Why did we even have to pay for a failed design?
Funneling 4, 5, or 6 lanes into the existing three will do nothing to alleviate congestion or speed the commute.
 @last boyscout LOL... That's moscow on the Willamettes influence. The original design did have more lanes. When the cost became an issue, rather than scrapping the light rail (which would have been a MUCH more effective means to curb costs) they cut lanes and redid the budgeting on the WA and OR exchange plans.Â
Â
Apparently, the idealism won out over practicality.... go figure, huh?
Â
 @MarkKpic  @last boyscout Socialized transportation is a fun concept, huh? Rather bankrupting and inefficient, but makes use all feel warm and fuzzy.
 @TimBurr  @last boyscout I guess if there is an up side to be found in it, it would be that at least Tri Met didn't get the wild hair to go with subways.Â
Â
Of course, that wouldn't serve to allow wealthy to suckle transportation budgets for property they buy knowing that it will end up being sold to Tri Met (for an inflated cost, of course).
Thank god the republicans would never waste money on a bridge to nowhere...
It think they should have made a bypass bridge designated bus-only, which could be available to traffic during off-peak hours, or it could have a toll gate so POVs can use it if traffic's jacked on the regular bridges...they just have to pay a toll to use the fast lane.Whatever. We can't afford this.
They neglected to mention the tolls that the citizens that commute back and forth would have to incur. Many of my friends that commute does not have high paying jobs and having to pay as much as eight dollars each way is going to be a tremendous burden on these families. I own a business in Vancouver but live in Portland, I know that what ever their proposed toll will be will be another substantial burden on my income as well as my business in regards to my customers coming from across the river.
Let "someone else" pay for your commute, socialist!
Who thinks the current bridge works just fine and meets our traffic demands for the next 5+ years?Â
Most Portlanders I talk too.
Leave it to government to even consider a structure that would put people out of work.
Make sure they are all union jobs, otherwise the taxpayer might be saving 5x the sticker price.
When I drive over a bridge I sure has hell hope it was built with union labor.
We can't balance a budget. We can't educate children. We can't keep our people off of drugs. We can't secure our borders. We can't even build a stupid bridge.
We have gone from a nation of doers to a nation of do-nothings. We put the P in pathetic.
I am confused the citizens have voiced their opinion on this bridge and the majority does not want it nor that ugly light rail but a bill is being introduced. do we get to vote on this or is this going to be shoved down our throat...
âFlip this Houseâ TV star Armando Montelongo was indicted by a Travis County grand jury on a theft of service charge according to the Austin American-Statesman newspaper.http://www.statesman.com/news/content/news/stories/local/02/22/0222montelongo.htmlArmando Montelongo Jr., 36, faces up to two years in state jail if convicted. The indictment, handed up Wednesday, charges that from January 2006 through February 2007 Montelongo failed to pay home appraisal fees in Travis County.This is not the first problem with âFlip this Houseâ stars. Last year several media outlets were investigating claims that Atlanta businessman Sam Leccima, another Flip this House star, had bilked investors out of their money.http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2007/06/01/entertainment/e125327D35.DTLPosts related to "Flip this House" Plagued with CrooksMore homeowners dropping out of foreclosure-prevention program
From the Associated Press WASHINGTON â The number of homeowners in the Obama administration's flagship foreclosure-prevention program is growing, data released Wednesday show. Yet it's ...
Can Foreclosure Investing Be Criminal?
I recently attended a âfreeâ seminar on how to âget rich quickâ in foreclosures. The speaker had a different angle than the usual âsteal it ...
Risks of Buying Real Estate in "Emerging Markets"
Between 2004 and 2007, real estate investors, hungry for break-even or positive cash flow rental properties, purchased income property out of state. California investors bought ...
How to Challenge That Low Appraisal
In the volatile real-estate market of the past several years, prospective homebuyers and refinancers have encountered the same frustrating obstacle: a low appraisal. Appraisal complaints ...
Â
 Take your spam somewhere else. We are all full up here.
Â
Flag "None"'s posts as spam.
 @RalphCramden Or at least - off topic!Â
Do it or do something else. Â It's not that hard.
So after a decade of political and union mismanagement, this will rise to about 10 billion dollars. Or about 5 grand for every person in the PDX metro area. To replace one bridge. No wonder our country is bankrupt and our faith in politicians is at an all time low.