Ballots delivered without proper postage raises questions
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PORTLAND, Ore. – In addition to the investigation of suspected ballot tampering in Clackamas County, another ballot controversy is brewing in Oregon.
The postal service is delivering mail-in ballots that lack proper postage, despite Oregon's law that says mailed ballots need postage.
Election officials are counting those ballots that lack the necessary postage.
Every vote counts and the goal of elections leaders is to encourage voters to take part in the process. So it would seem fitting that the postal service is delivering all ballots, regardless of stamps.
But "(Oregon law) clearly says that the voter is responsible for putting postage on the ballot if it's going to be returned," said Tim Scott, the director of elections in Multnomah County.
He said postage hasn't been an issue until now – not even during the May primary six months ago.
"Normally those ballots are not even given to us because we direct the post office to return them to the voter because they have not put postage on it," Scott said.
In an Oct. 24 email, Oregon Elections Director Stephen Trout wrote to the postal service that "while we appreciate that this policy is well intentioned, it is in direct conflict with Oregon state law and the practices we have had in place for years."
Responding to Trout a week later, U.S. Postmaster General Patrick Donahoe writes that " ... ensuring the timely delivery of ballots sent through the mail, properly reflects the appropriate role of the postal service in the functioning of the electoral process."
But he went on to note " ... the policy does not dictate whether any Oregon election official must accept short-paid ballots or must count the votes contained therein."
"We've been directed to accept all ballots regardless of whether they have postage or not," Scott said.
The postal service says this is a national policy that has been in place since at least 2010.
But no one at the postal service in Oregon remembers these ballots being delivered in any other election. And it raises the question of whether it will influence close elections here in Oregon and around the country.
Oregon law is fairly clear. If you don't put postage (or enough postage), you vote should not be counted. You have the option of delivering the ballot by hand to a drop box.
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 @ShallowEnder And just where in ORS 254 do you see that it should not be counted?
Ya, the people mailing them are dumbarses.
It's probably cheaper for the Post Office to deliver them than to return them to the voter.
 @Mikey It isn't cheaper, since the USPS is going broke. It costs them to deliver and it is without them being paid for the delivery.
 @Saltire  @Mikey huh?
 @Saltire  @Mikey Umm, returning them is a delivery too. It would be cheaper to deliver them because they're all... going... to the same place...
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In the county I live in there is a postage due trust account at the local post office that pays for short paid mail. This is no different at election time. So it's the county who foots the bill funded by county residents who pay taxes. A lot of people know this and mail their ballots without postage knowing that they will be delivered postage or not. It's been like this a long time and am sure the same with most counties in the state of Oregon.
What county is that? @ritfamÂ
This article is entirely wrong. The problem is not that the U.S. Postal Service is violating state law by delivering ballots which have insufficient postage on them. First, state law does not govern the Postal Service. Second, the problem is that the Secretary of State sought to have the Postal Service not deliver ballots with insufficient postage, even though that it the Postal Service's consistent practice and is done in all other states with voting by mail.
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The Postmaster General of the United States, Patrick Donahoe, on October 31 rejected the Secretary of State's demand, stating:
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"The Postal Service has received your communications regarding the Postal Services policy to deliver election ballots even if they lack sufficient postage. You request that the Postal Service cease this practice, claiming that its continuance conflicts with Oregon law, as well as unspecified provisions of the United States Constitution. We disagree with those assertions. We believe that our current policy, by ensuring the timely delivery of ballots sent through the mail, properly reflects the appropriate role of the Postal Service in the functioning of the electoral process."
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With postage rates increasing every year, it is understandable that some voters would stamp their ballots with one cent or two cents too little postage. And sometimes stamps just fall off, particularly in Oregon's damp weather. These voters should not have their votes discarded. The Postal Service should be commended for delivering these ballots, not criticized by the Oregon Secretary of State.
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Also, sometimes ballots and their envelopes weigh more than one ounce, which requires more postage than usual. Having the Postal Service not deliver ballots with insufficient postage will affect rural Oregonians most heavily. They rely on the mails to deliver their ballots, because there are so few ballot drop-off locations in rural areas. For example, Curry Couty is amost 2,000 square miles and has only 2 drop-off points that are not within the city of Gold Beach. Many county Voters' Pamphlets list no drop-off points other than the county election office itself--one per county. Many Oregon counties are larger than entire other states.
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No information is available on how Oregon ballots suffer from insufficient postage. This article in the Helena Independent Record indicates that insufficient postage in Missoula County, Montana, this election has affected 300 out of 40,000 returned ballots, which is a rate of 3/4 of 1%: http://goo.gl/tD15p.
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For an accurate description of this subject, see http://goo.gl/nmkTJ and the Oregonian article at http://goo.gl/qYXrv.
Not enough postage  , simple, send them back to the addresses marked in big letters , HEY STUPID ADD THE CORRECT POSTAGE.
 @onceagain But once the Post Office has them, wouldn't it need postage to get them back to the sender? Oh, it's all SO CONFUSING! I'm sending mine by carrier pigeon, dammit.
Frankly, I've often wondered why ballots require postage. The extended line of that thinking is that someone who cannot afford the postage should not be allowed to vote? Since the state of OR did away with polling by precinct, and the law mandates equal participation.... Shouldn't any incurred costs be covered by the Sec of States office, or the Elections Div?
 @MarkKpic No.  Because you incur costs pretty much no matter what you choose.  Driving, bus, taxi all require money.  Even if you walk, you take your time instead of money.  Should I be able to claim the 8 hours I spent researching voting?  My rates published on the web put that as $95/hr.  I chose to spend that *uncompensated time* on voting.
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As was said earlier:
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"It always costs time (biking,walking) or money (Bus, MAX, Car, taxi, mail).  Considering minimum wage of $9 (give or take) as what someone's time is worth, a stamp is only 24 minutes; 12 minutes each direction would give less than a mile radius (Pretty close to 3/4 mile, assuming 4 mph as avg walking speed).  Do these people living 80 miles away live within 3/4 miles of polling place?  Do all of them?"
 @brendan Researching candidates and measures is your responsibility. Participating in the electoral process is your right. Big difference.Â
 @MarkKpic Fair enough.
 @brendan The point of my post, the ONLY point of my post, is that by removing precinct polling places the elections office has placed yet another obsticle in the voting process. By the state of OR involving the USPS in the voting process, ALL efforts should have been made to ensure that there was no additional obligation placed upon the voting public in order to guarantee their right to participate in the democratic process. That's it. Fin. Period.Â
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Of course, the immediate consideration to be made (as posted above) is the idea that someone could conceivably sway the election by choosing which ballots to return and which to deliver to the elections office for counting. For example, the PMA is decidedly D leaning, so someone who was sympathetic to a democratic candidate could mandate that any postage-due ballots from Wash/Clack/Mult Co were to be delivered, while any from Baker Co are to be returned.Â
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Your interest in being right is surpassing your interest in progressive discussions of other ideas. That is you proverbial cross to bear, not mine. Your points are well reasoned, and well researched. That does not, however, make them 'right'. What it does make them is your (well thought out) opinions.Â
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To quote Cat Stevens;
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There aint no good guy,Â
there aint no bad guy,
there's only you and me and we just disagree.
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Have a fantastic Sunday.
 @MarkKpic OK, it's very apparent now, the error.  You think "Vote by mail" is a means of returning one's ballots, lol.  It refers to the sending as well.  Polling sites also incur wait times; time *is* money.
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The law directs the Clerks to mail the ballots automatically, with other means to use if that does not suit (such as pick up in person).
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What it does say about the *voter* is: (ORSÂ Â 254.470 (6))
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"The elector may return the marked ballot to the county clerk by United States mail or by depositing the ballot at the office of the county clerk, at any place of deposit designated by the county clerk or at any location described in ORS 254.472 or 254.474."
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So you are not *required* to mail it in. Â There are other options included in the law, with a very obvious "or" statement.
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Since it is not a requirement, there is no obstruction.  There is no impediment to voting.
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And if you want to be oh so pedantic: (dictionary.com)
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debate: a discussion, as of a public question in an assembly, involving opposing viewpoints: a debate in the Senate on farm price supports.
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discussion: an act or instance of discussing;  consideration or examination by argument, comment, etc., especially to explore solutions; informal debate.
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As to discussion, well:Â http://d.facdn.net/art/two0wls/1305669798.two0wls_our-discussion.jpg
 @brendan  @MarkKpic Your error stems from the (apparent) position that you take of there only being a 'right' and 'wrong' answer or consideration.Â
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My point, still valid, is that the vote by mail system should guarantee voters their constitutional right to participate in the electoral process. Having to pay for a stamp is an impediment to that. As is having to find means to transport the ballot to a drop off site. When ballots were done by precinct, there was an effort made (by law) for the polling sights to be within a reasonable distance from the voters homes.Â
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You're debating, I'm discussing.Â
 @MarkKpic Then don't allude to it :)
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"Shouldn't any incurred costs..."
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As well, the rest of my argument stands.  All you did is *possibly* refute that absurdity reduction.  If you'll notice my actual position is, we are responsible for getting our vote in, in the manner we choose.  Walk.  Bike.  Public Transit and other CCs (Taxis).  Drive.  Have someone drive you.  Mail.  Have a friend drop it off while they're dropping theirs off. (Probably free)  Unless you live within a very short distance of your drop-off place, even if you walk/bike there, chances are you've lost more money.  Even at minimum wage, the place where you spend more time than a stamp costs, is about 15 minutes.  If you make $25/hr or more (roughly $50k/year), that distance drops down to about a 5 minute walk.  Polling places do not solve this issue, as you *still* have to get to the polling place.  And wait in line (See that clock ticking up how much your time is worth?) likely.
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My costs for dropping off my ballot (We won't deal with the fact I will likely drop my fiance's ballot off too, cutting the cost in half):
Driving from Central Beaverton to Murray Blvd (almost directly west) is 2.04 miles for me (4 round trip, we can round, right?).  I get about 20mpg city (25hwy, 1982 Volvo B21F engine).  I use about 1/5th of a gallon for the trip, and $4/gal puts it right about $0.80 for gas.
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Slightly more expensive, but I know my ballot got to the office. Â More importantly, *my choice* for how to get the ballot in.
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@MarkKpic Excellent and well reasoned comment. Quite frankly, since the public is paying for the election anyway why should there be a postage requirement?
 @I812  @MarkKpic No, it is a poorly reasoned comment.  It can be reduced to its absurdity easily, and simply.
 @I812  @MarkKpic Because someone has to pay for the postage. If it isn't the voter, then it's the counties. The postal service is a separate entity and runs its own budget, as such even governmental entities have to pay for postage. They don't get to mail things for free just because they're the government. If we go to prepaid postage, then counties will have to find areas to cut other budgets (or raise taxes/fees) in order to pay for the postage. In Multnomah County you could be looking at close to $200,000 per election for return postage alone (assuming it is not a ballot that requires additional postage).
 @brendan  @MarkKpic  @Jenni S.  @I812 Is that what I think?
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Thanks for clearing that up. :-)
@MarkKpic@Jenni S.@I812 Your problem is that you think it's mail-in *only* ; it is not:
(ORSÂ Â 254.470 (6))
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"The elector may return the marked ballot to the county clerk by United States mail or by depositing the ballot at the office of the county clerk, at any place of deposit designated by the county clerk or at any location described in ORS 254.472 or 254.474."
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You can not use the word "only" as there are at least two other options.
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Take the word only out, and now repeat what you said, and listen to it.
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 @Jenni S.  @I812  @MarkKpic The argument could be made that, since the creation of a 'mail in' only voting system, the state has saved money by eliminating the expense of polling places. That money, had it not been absorbed by PERS and administrative costs, could then be used to offset any costs.
 @Jenni S.  @I812  @MarkKpic Your estimate of the cost is not even close. Political entities receive large discounts on postage. The nonprofit standard rate for a letter is currently 16.6 cents. In addition, there are big discounts for High-Volume Qualified Business Reply Mail. Further, i believe that the State could negotiate even a better rate from the Post Office for return ballots.
The key question here is whether every post office in the state is delivering the ballots, or one in certain areas? If it's only being done in one area and not another, that can significantly impact the election based on what voting tendencies those areas follow.
 @HuskyKMA By golly, you're right! Let's gather up all the townsfolk, pitchforks and torches! We march on the Post Office at midnight!!!  ;-)
 @HuskyKMA The Postal Service is delivering the ballots, but some counties (such as Multnomah County) have been refusing to accept delivery. The Secretary of State sought to "remedy" this situation by having the Postal service not deliver the ballots at all.
 @HuskyKMA It would be all. Mail would first go to the post office that picked up the ballot from your mailbox, the blue mailboxes, etc. Ballots get their first sorting there, at which time they could be marked as insufficient postage and sent back. Then the ballot is going to head towards the county elections office. It'll have at least one more stop at the post office that serves the county elections office. It may also have a stop inbetween at a central mail facility, such as the one in Portland.
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At any of the places along that line where the mail is sorted, it could be flagged for insufficient postage and sent back to the voter. Since it could take time for that ballot to get back to the voter, it could be too late for the voter to get it back to county elections before the deadline.
Oregon law says the post office can return ballots with insufficient postage to the sender, but if they choose not to, seems to me it's within their rights to decide whether or not to deliver them or return them. Sending them on to their destination may not be the best business choice, but it is the right moral choice. Â
 @Kennyboy so the people that dont vote should pay for the people who do vote without postage?
Actually, the people who are old enough to vote and decide not to vote, do not really need to have a say in anything. They had their chance to vote, if they decide not to, that is their choice.
so in oregon we can now send mail without stamps?..... who pays for the postal service? why do stamps increase every year?
You seem to be missing the point. This is for one thing..."Ballots", not everyday mail.
Stamps increase because of the cost of mail. I have seen people rip off the U.S.P.S. by using free maling envelopes and boxes for other uses. But the main story is about ballots being delivered to be counted, without postage on them.
''short-paid'', ''necessary postage''.. I mailed my ballot from home (meaning I used a stamp and dropped it in a blue box), but honestly, it felt a bit heavy. Surely they would have noted ''additional postage required'' if it was overweight. Some of the language in this story concerns me. Like, short-paid. Let's be clear... we are talking No postage, not short postage. No?
 @Lips No, we are talking about both no postage and short paid. The Secretary of State's office asked the Postal Service not to deliver ballots with insufficient postage. That includes ballots that may have a 44 cent stamp, after the first class rate has increased to 45 cents.
 @Dan Meek Thanks, Dan. That's all I wanted to know. I'm not a simpleton, I get the obvious. Just wouldn't have been surprised to learn the ballots required .52 or .64, or some dumb thing no one was made aware of.
 @brendan  @Dan Meek Brendan, I should be clearer.. I know. You know. But, it's a bit shady if the return envelope that's ''required'' and it's contents, which are required, require additional postage and it's not noted. Now, within days of the deadline, we're hearing that they may not be counted? Crap, even Hallmark gives the sender a heads up.
 @Lips  @Dan Meek The cost for mailing an extra half ounce (1 to 1.5 ounces) is $0.65.  (I was incorrect in an early post; stamp covers first ounce, after that it's based on half ounce rates).  Postal service rates have been avail. online for quite some time now.
 @Lips I gather it is both. Some are sending in their ballots with no stamp (or the stamp has detached for some reason). With others is it not having enough postage - using older stamps that aren't the current amount, having a heavier ballot that needs more postage, etc.
 @Jenni S. I'm content to blame the mailer on all accounts except the 'ballot was too heavy'. If adding our ink to the ballot put it over weight, and there was no notice of this, shame on them.
 @Lips  @Jenni S. Just weighed my ballot; 19.7g, well under 28g.  Were there any two-sheet ballots in a  county/city?  And yes, there's a reason why postal scales aren't very hard to get.
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It's just simple personal responsibility.  Apparently, that's being deprecated lately (and no, not referring to you, referring to 15 years of crap victim news).  Last night I had someone trying to my son his failures in school were "All the school's fault."  Seriously?  When did we start breeding people like this?  She didn't even find out *what* his problems are; no logic.
 @brendan  @Jenni S. Seriously? Although you may be technically right, and I did consider taking my ballot to the office and dumping it on the scale... Return or prepared (cards, etc.) typically note ''additional postage required''. I use snail mail so little, I don't maintain a USPS meter at home, nor would I expect my absentee ballot to require it. Did it? Hmmmm...
 @Lips  @Jenni S. We are the ones responsible for weighing our mail before we mail it.  Considering a stamp has covered the first half-ounce far back as I can remember (late 60s, maybe early 70s) I find it hard to believe anyone who is 18 and voting doesn't know that by now.
People too dumb to put proper postage on an envelope. Hmmm. How do you suppose they will vote? If the State accepts them, do I get my Forever postage stamp which I paid for returned?
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I think we should go back to the way it used to be, go in, step behind the curtain, cast your vote. This settles the mail issue, and every vote would be counted.
 @ghost rider Or allow both.
 @ghost rider And significantly less people would vote. States with vote by mail have higher voting rates than those without because those who wouldn't be able to make it to the polls are able to vote by mail.Â