Fact Check: Overreaching in State of Union speech
WASHINGTON (AP) - President Barack Obama did some cherry-picking Tuesday night in defense of his record on jobs and laid out a conditional path to citizenship for illegal immigrants that may be less onerous than he made it sound.
A look at some of the claims in his State of the Union speech, a glance at the Republican counterargument and how they fit with the facts:
Obama: "After years of grueling recession, our businesses have created over 6 million new jobs."
The Facts: That's in the ballpark, as far as it goes. But Obama starts his count not when he took office, but from the point in his first term when job losses were the highest. In doing so, he ignores the 5 million or so jobs that were lost on his watch, up to that point.
Private sector jobs have grown by 6.1 million since February 2010. But since he became president, the gain is a more modest 1.9 million.
And when losses in public sector employment are added to the mix, his overall jobs record is a gain of 1.2 million.
---
Obama: "We have doubled the distance our cars will go on a gallon of gas."
The Facts: Not so fast.
That's expected to happen in 12 more years.
Under a deal the Obama administration reached with automakers in 2011, vehicles will have a corporate average fuel economy of 54.5 miles per gallon by 2025, twice the 27 miles per gallon, on average, that cars and trucks get today. Automobile manufacturers won't start making changes to achieve the new fuel economy standards until model year 2017. Not all cars will double their gas mileage, since the standard is based on an average of a manufacturers' fleet.
---
Obama: "Already the Affordable Care Act is helping to reduce the growth of health care costs."
The Facts: The jury is still out on whether Obama's health care overhaul will reduce the growth of health care costs. It's true that cost increases have eased, but many experts say that's due to the sluggish economy, not to the health care law, whose main provisions are not yet fully in effect.
---
Obama: "Real reform means establishing a responsible pathway to earned citizenship - a path that includes passing a background check, paying taxes and a meaningful penalty, learning English and going to the back of the line behind the folks trying to come here legally."
The Facts: The seemingly stern admonition that illegal immigrants must go to the back of the line, often heard from the president, doesn't appear to have much practical effect except in the most obvious sense. Everyone who joins a line, whether for a movie, a coffee or citizenship, starts at the back of that particular line. It's not clear he is saying anything more than that illegal immigrants won't get to cut in line for citizenship once they've obtained provisional legal status.
Like those living abroad who have applied to come to the U.S. legally, illegal immigrants who qualify for Obama's proposed path to citizenship will surely face long waits to be processed. But during that time, they are already in the U.S. and will get to stay, work and travel in the country under their new status as provisional immigrants, while those outside the U.S. simply have to wait.
Sending illegal immigrants to the "back of the line" is something of a distinction without a difference for some legal immigrants who dutifully followed all the rules before coming to the United States.
For instance, some legal immigrants who are in the U.S. on an employer-sponsored visa can't easily change jobs, or in some cases take a promotion, without jeopardizing their place in line to get a green card. In other cases, would-be legal immigrants in other countries wait for years to be able to settle in the U.S.
Obama is using "back of the line" somewhat figuratively, because there are multiple lines depending on the applicant's relationship with family already in the U.S. or with an employer. Generally, a foreign-born spouse of a U.S. citizen or someone with needed skills and a job offer will be accepted more quickly than many others.
But even as a figurative point, his assertion may cloak the fact that people who came to the U.S. illegally and win provisional status have the great advantage over applicants abroad of already being where they all want to go.
---
Obama: "Study after study shows that the sooner a child begins learning, the better he or she does down the road. ... And for poor kids who need help the most, this lack of access to preschool education can shadow them for the rest of their lives. ... Every dollar we invest in high-quality early education can save more than $7 later on - by boosting graduation rates, reducing teen pregnancy, even reducing violent crime."
The Facts: Dozens of studies have shown Head Start graduates are more likely to complete high school than their at-risk peers who don't participate in the program. But a study last year by the Department of Health and Human Services that found big vocabulary and social development gains for at-risk students in pre-kindergarten programs also found those effects largely faded by the time pupils reached third grade. The report didn't explain why the kids saw a drop-off in performance or predict how they would fare as they aged.
---
Obama: "I urge this Congress to pursue a bipartisan, market-based solution to climate change, like the one John McCain and Joe Lieberman worked on together a few years ago. But if Congress won't act soon to protect future generations, I will. I will direct my Cabinet to come up with executive actions we can take, now and in the future, to reduce pollution, prepare our communities for the consequences of climate change and speed the transition to more sustainable sources of energy."
The Facts: Obama failed to get a global warming bill through Congress when both Houses were controlled by Democrats in 2010. With Republicans in control of the House, the chances of a bill to limit the gases blamed for global warming and to create a market for businesses to trade pollution credits are close to zero. The Obama administration has already acted to control greenhouse gases through existing law. It has boosted fuel-efficiency standards and proposed rules to control heat-trapping emissions from new power plants. And while there are still other ways to address climate change without Congress, it's questionable regulation alone can achieve the reductions needed to start curbing global warming.
---
Florida Sen. Marco Rubio, in the Republican response: "The real cause of our debt is that our government has been spending $1 trillion more than it takes in every year. That's why we need a balanced-budget amendment."
The Facts: That statement may reflect the math behind recent debt, but it doesn't get directly to the cause - the worst recession since the Depression and its aftereffects. The deficit is not only caused by spending, but by reduced tax revenues. And during the recession, revenues from both individual and corporate taxes fell markedly.
The steep increases in debt and the measures that should be taken to ease the burden are central to the debate in Washington. But there is no serious move afoot to amend the Constitution to prohibit deficit spending.
The ability to take on debt has been used by governments worldwide and through U.S. history to shelter people from the ravages of a down economy, wage war and achieve many other ends. An effort to amend the Constitution for any purpose faces daunting odds; this would be no exception. Most state constitutions demand a balanced budget, but states lack some big obligations of the federal government, including national defense. And Washington's ability to go deeper into debt provides states with at least a minimal safety net in times of high unemployment.
A look at some of the claims in his State of the Union speech, a glance at the Republican counterargument and how they fit with the facts:
Obama: "After years of grueling recession, our businesses have created over 6 million new jobs."
The Facts: That's in the ballpark, as far as it goes. But Obama starts his count not when he took office, but from the point in his first term when job losses were the highest. In doing so, he ignores the 5 million or so jobs that were lost on his watch, up to that point.
Private sector jobs have grown by 6.1 million since February 2010. But since he became president, the gain is a more modest 1.9 million.
And when losses in public sector employment are added to the mix, his overall jobs record is a gain of 1.2 million.
---
Obama: "We have doubled the distance our cars will go on a gallon of gas."
The Facts: Not so fast.
That's expected to happen in 12 more years.
Under a deal the Obama administration reached with automakers in 2011, vehicles will have a corporate average fuel economy of 54.5 miles per gallon by 2025, twice the 27 miles per gallon, on average, that cars and trucks get today. Automobile manufacturers won't start making changes to achieve the new fuel economy standards until model year 2017. Not all cars will double their gas mileage, since the standard is based on an average of a manufacturers' fleet.
---
Obama: "Already the Affordable Care Act is helping to reduce the growth of health care costs."
The Facts: The jury is still out on whether Obama's health care overhaul will reduce the growth of health care costs. It's true that cost increases have eased, but many experts say that's due to the sluggish economy, not to the health care law, whose main provisions are not yet fully in effect.
---
Obama: "Real reform means establishing a responsible pathway to earned citizenship - a path that includes passing a background check, paying taxes and a meaningful penalty, learning English and going to the back of the line behind the folks trying to come here legally."
The Facts: The seemingly stern admonition that illegal immigrants must go to the back of the line, often heard from the president, doesn't appear to have much practical effect except in the most obvious sense. Everyone who joins a line, whether for a movie, a coffee or citizenship, starts at the back of that particular line. It's not clear he is saying anything more than that illegal immigrants won't get to cut in line for citizenship once they've obtained provisional legal status.
Like those living abroad who have applied to come to the U.S. legally, illegal immigrants who qualify for Obama's proposed path to citizenship will surely face long waits to be processed. But during that time, they are already in the U.S. and will get to stay, work and travel in the country under their new status as provisional immigrants, while those outside the U.S. simply have to wait.
Sending illegal immigrants to the "back of the line" is something of a distinction without a difference for some legal immigrants who dutifully followed all the rules before coming to the United States.
For instance, some legal immigrants who are in the U.S. on an employer-sponsored visa can't easily change jobs, or in some cases take a promotion, without jeopardizing their place in line to get a green card. In other cases, would-be legal immigrants in other countries wait for years to be able to settle in the U.S.
Obama is using "back of the line" somewhat figuratively, because there are multiple lines depending on the applicant's relationship with family already in the U.S. or with an employer. Generally, a foreign-born spouse of a U.S. citizen or someone with needed skills and a job offer will be accepted more quickly than many others.
But even as a figurative point, his assertion may cloak the fact that people who came to the U.S. illegally and win provisional status have the great advantage over applicants abroad of already being where they all want to go.
---
Obama: "Study after study shows that the sooner a child begins learning, the better he or she does down the road. ... And for poor kids who need help the most, this lack of access to preschool education can shadow them for the rest of their lives. ... Every dollar we invest in high-quality early education can save more than $7 later on - by boosting graduation rates, reducing teen pregnancy, even reducing violent crime."
The Facts: Dozens of studies have shown Head Start graduates are more likely to complete high school than their at-risk peers who don't participate in the program. But a study last year by the Department of Health and Human Services that found big vocabulary and social development gains for at-risk students in pre-kindergarten programs also found those effects largely faded by the time pupils reached third grade. The report didn't explain why the kids saw a drop-off in performance or predict how they would fare as they aged.
---
Obama: "I urge this Congress to pursue a bipartisan, market-based solution to climate change, like the one John McCain and Joe Lieberman worked on together a few years ago. But if Congress won't act soon to protect future generations, I will. I will direct my Cabinet to come up with executive actions we can take, now and in the future, to reduce pollution, prepare our communities for the consequences of climate change and speed the transition to more sustainable sources of energy."
The Facts: Obama failed to get a global warming bill through Congress when both Houses were controlled by Democrats in 2010. With Republicans in control of the House, the chances of a bill to limit the gases blamed for global warming and to create a market for businesses to trade pollution credits are close to zero. The Obama administration has already acted to control greenhouse gases through existing law. It has boosted fuel-efficiency standards and proposed rules to control heat-trapping emissions from new power plants. And while there are still other ways to address climate change without Congress, it's questionable regulation alone can achieve the reductions needed to start curbing global warming.
---
Florida Sen. Marco Rubio, in the Republican response: "The real cause of our debt is that our government has been spending $1 trillion more than it takes in every year. That's why we need a balanced-budget amendment."
The Facts: That statement may reflect the math behind recent debt, but it doesn't get directly to the cause - the worst recession since the Depression and its aftereffects. The deficit is not only caused by spending, but by reduced tax revenues. And during the recession, revenues from both individual and corporate taxes fell markedly.
The steep increases in debt and the measures that should be taken to ease the burden are central to the debate in Washington. But there is no serious move afoot to amend the Constitution to prohibit deficit spending.
The ability to take on debt has been used by governments worldwide and through U.S. history to shelter people from the ravages of a down economy, wage war and achieve many other ends. An effort to amend the Constitution for any purpose faces daunting odds; this would be no exception. Most state constitutions demand a balanced budget, but states lack some big obligations of the federal government, including national defense. And Washington's ability to go deeper into debt provides states with at least a minimal safety net in times of high unemployment.
When you are drinking the koolaid, facts don't matter. Clap yourself giddy. I could barely watch ten minutes before I had to switch off State of the Onion. I bet there were more gun protecting all these gun haters than for sale at a Texas gun show.
@The Resistance He talked about more than just guns... but I guess your guns are all you care about.
"Reduce the growth of health care costs"
This man doesn't have the slightest idea. But he'll make his supporters feel better and they'll be all warm and fuzzy that they voted correctly while the economics of supporting this government is costing trillions.
Listening to Obama's version of the State Of The Union with the expectation of an honest evaluation of our economy, is like reading about intercourse and expecting to get someone pregnant. It's not going to happen.
Overreaching in the state of the union? Of course. He is a politician after all.
You know how to tell when he was lying? Â He had his mouth open!
When you elect a clown you get a circus. I thought the circus was over when Bush left office. Instead we got an even bigger one!Â
I see conservatives are getting ready to launch a War on Preschool.Â
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You know what - every single kid who has ever existed in the history of the world would have benefited from a stable home run by two intelligent and  loving parents willing to sacrifice anything to raise their children.
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But, here on planet Earth, life can be messy. For every kid served up a family that falls short in some way, we as a society have to do more than shrug our shoulders and say that there's nothing to be done.
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Study after study shows the benefits of early childhood education. Even the new favorite one with conservatives that shows the effect wearing off after third grade - isn't that more of an indictment of our elementary education system rather than preschool?
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Yes, school is only part of a child's education (for all demographics), but shouldn't that part be as high-quality as possible? Especially for the kids who for whatever reason are not getting the support they need at home? It's almost as though some people want to hold a child's family life against that child - 'your family doesn't measure up so neither will you.' I find that deeply undemocratic and deeply unfair.
@Max Quinn Only an idiot that proposes new spending for new programs when there is no money to pay for existing spending and no ability to budget approved by sequestration that was Obozo' s idea but now being used to accuse the opposition with could theoretically benefit from an unfunded pre school head start but since you obviously missed such opportunity paid for by your favorite benefactor someone else maybe you can benefit from remedial programs but I doubt that.
I work closely with those failing in the school system and there are many reasons why our drop-out rates are high. Sadly, most center on the issues in the home. We have many broken and dysfunctional homes, families affected by drugs and or alcohol, families that are involved in other criminal behavior, (usually with a drug related background), and families who are beside themself tryng to cope with a child who has become drug affected. These people are then thrust into the public school system and impact thier peers. Indicting the elementary school is equally undemocratic and unfair.
emocratic and deeply unfair.
I don't know why we always need spin doctors and wranglers to always interpret for us what we were able to hear for ourselves and reach out own conclusions. For those that didn't watch the speeches I can only ask, why not. I guess we now are only able to believe what other talking heads have digested for us and fed us. And you know what the end product of digestion is, right?Â
@jpk It takes a special kind of stupid for anyone to think that a POTUS or another politician's words do not need to be filtered to get the truth. Politics is nothing more than the maintenance of perception and like any level of government, its first priority is self preservation.
@jpk "For those that didn't watch the speeches I can only ask, why not"
Obama last night "âNothing Iâm proposing tonight should increase our deficit by a single dime,â
For those of you that did watch the speeches I can only ask WHY?
 @jpk Oh so you already knew "when losses in public sector employment are added to the mix, his overall jobs record is a gain of 1.2 million." How did you figure it out by yourself?
 @jpk Some of us cannot stomach to watch & listen to the "great" orator in person, so use other outlets to feed from.
@TimBurr @jpk Maybe you can just get the abridged version from Lars Larson.
Perhaps it's time to start thinking for yourself.
@TimBurr @jpk Then maybe you need to grow up a bit, put on your ears and suck it up.  I even listened to GW bumble his way through speeches, because I wanted to be informed on my own, not by what I was told by others. Â
@Sundowner @TimBurr @jpk But everything Bush and Obama say/said are lies so how exactly is that informing you?
âNothing Iâm proposing tonight should increase our deficit by a single dime,â
All I had to do was read that quote to know I made the right choice playing X-box instead of watching the state of the union address.....
@Sundowner @TimBurr @jpkÂ
Oh yes, nothing more mature than telling people to grow up...
Maybe some of us don't watch the speeches (regardless of which windbag gives them) because we believe that actions speak louder than words, and in the case of politicians, the two are rarely related in any basis of reality.
One need not be smug or superior to be informed.
 @jpk Like what you say.
If there is a Nobel for dirty, underhanded, dishonest politics then I'm sure Obama needs to clear some more room on his trophy shelf
His State of the Union the Address was a vain and transparent attempt to assure us that everything is alright even as they're slowly walking us into the lion's den. Obama's state of the union was a state of denial just as many of us had anticipated... our illustrious President has proclaimed that more government and higher taxes are his ways to restore confidence and prosperity. Uh, Mr. President/Captain Calamity, just exactly what economics courses did you complete in that academic career the details of which you steadfastly refused to disclose? Obviously, you were not paying attention to the part about maintaining the value of currency and guarding against expenditures exceeding revenues.
This prez hasn't A clue about business or running this country. If things go a little haywire he will just go on a vacation or some sort of campaign trip. If he thinks he has a battle for minimum wage just wait for the one he won't win at all, GUN CONTROL.
Obama is nothing but a hypocrite. He rails on and on about the fat cat bankers and their big bonuses, his Treasury Dept. nominee worked for Citigroup and was a fat cat banker who got big bonuses during the time that the taxpayers bailed out Citigroup. During the campaign Obama railed on and on about Romney having investments in the Cayman Islands. His nominee for Treasury Dept. has investments in the Cayman Islands. Do as I say, not like I doâ¦Obama's State of the Union address was full of well-worn liberal ideas and campaign-style hostility, and did little to ease partisan tensions over major issuesâ¦now he is off campaigning still â to avoid his responsibilitiesâ¦.thanks 47%....
Once again, for all the time I spend lamenting K2s online content, I sincerely appreciate the 'fact check' articles that glean truth, and apply facts to the inherently 'rose colored' speeches given so often by candidates and elected officials.
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Thank you for this article, K2 & livefyre.
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BTW... "Dozens of studies have shown Head Start graduates are more likely to complete high school than their at-risk peers who don't participate in the program. But a study last year by the Department of Health and Human Services that found big vocabulary and social development gains for at-risk students in pre-kindergarten programs also found those effects largely faded by the time pupils reached third grade. The report didn't explain why the kids saw a drop-off in performance or predict how they would fare as they aged."
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The explanation is the same reason for the persistant low scores among certain demographics. Education is NOT something that happens from 7-3 M-F in a building labeled a 'school'. When kids get home and Mom & Dad dont support, encourage and actively participate in creating not only a hunger for education, but also a desire to participate in that education, the children suffer. It's one of the biggest reasons that I have so much disdain for standardized testing and school 'benchmarks'. The schools are only a PART of the education equation. They aren't even the most important part. Until we see 100% participation on the part of the parent(s) and/or primary care givers, the numbers are going to remain pretty static.Â
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On the other side of the equation, throwing more money into the public education system isn't going to resolve anything either.Â
@MarkKpic
"But a study last year by the Department of Health and Human Services that found big vocabulary and social development gains for at-risk students in pre-kindergarten programs also found those effects largely faded by the time pupils reached third grade."
That's political stuff, Mark. Try to tell somebody with a straight face that if you teach a kid to speak and read English--as opposed to being supervised by his welfare-mom all day--he will forget it in three years.
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The fallacy revolves around the idea that Head Start kids would be in some other school -at all- during those times, whereas in Head Start not only are they learning the native language of the kids in public school, the parent who is likely as not a single mom will have the ability to complete job training or find work.
I am, by the way, a flag-waving illegal-loathing conservative. I've just seen this one work with my own eyes.
@Playanekes @MarkKpic Sincerely, I don't know that I disagree with you that the current montra of necessity of public education preschool is fundamentally sound. I do, however, have a rebuttal to a point you're (apparently) trying to make with this comment;
>'Try to tell somebody with a straight face that if you teach a kid to speak and read English--as opposed to being supervised by his welfare-mom all day--he will forget it in three years.'
The studies referenced do not say 'he will forget it in three years'. What they say is that any advantage that the student has by beginning their education at an earlier age begins to level out (insofar as test scores and academic advancement) by the time they reach 3rd grade. Which is where my point comes into consideration. Young children are INCREDIBLY hungry for learning. By the time they turn 6-7 years old, they begin to emulate their home environment as much (if not moreso) than when they are 4-5 years old. When they get home, and Mom & Dad plop them down in front of the TV or internet, and the closest thing to engaging them in education is the ubiquitous "do you have any homework?"... There's little chance that they will continue to excell educationally.Â
And, just so my postion is clear, I firmly believe that ESL programs need to be spun off from the mainstream schools. If you do not have a reasonable proficency in english, you are going to fall behind in a primarily english speaking academic environment. Forcing bi-lingual educational cirriculum into mainstream public schools only serves to increase cost, and slow the pace for the students who are primary english speakers.Â
@Playanekes @MarkKpic Head Start is wonderful for children who need it.  Plus (and maybe more important?), these children learn discipline and develop study habits that can only help as they go through school.  Anything that makes kids smarter, better students is a good thing.
I love the "illegals to the back of the line" statement. While those trying to enter the U.S. legally wait in their country, the "back of the line" for illegals is in the U.S. So, in effect this is amnesty. Obama says that if they apply (or intend to apply) for U.S. citizenship, they will be allowed to remain in the country. Or in other words, will be granted amnesty from deportation. Not the back of the line at all. Just a disguised amnesty program. Just like his outside the law DREAM act (DREAM act was never passed by Congress), illegal immigrant relatives are being granted amnesty so they aren't separated from their DREAMERS. One more amnesty program enacted by executive order.
He's a politician and therefore lies on a regular basis. Isn't that what politicians do best?
 @RalphCramden >' Isn't that what politicians do best'
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I'd say that it's neck and neck with placating special interests in order to obtain vast sums of 'free speech' for their next campaign.... as well as toeing party lines so as to not fall out of favor with their respective parties either.Â
 @MarkKpicÂ
Politicians get together with other politicians and figure out a way to present "facts" to the public designed to intentionally deceive them.
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After every political speech there needs to be a required fact check to verify the claims of the persons speech.
 @MarkKpic  @RalphCramden Politicians lie? We can not even agree to the facts on this message board. BFD. Politicians are meant to lead and inspire and sometimes that involves not stating the truth that you can not handle.
@dynamited77 @MarkKpic @RalphCramden >'Politicians are meant to lead and inspire and sometimes that involves not stating the truth that you can not handle.'
Well... You get what you deserve in our government then, I suppose.Â
Obama lies and freedom dies.
Fact: Illegals enjoy the benefits of  US citizens through tax payer dollars.
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What's that snarky liberal meme that's been going around about a "flag dropping behind" people? Gunnutz or the federal bureaucrat or one of those nutjobs has been using it here and I saw it elsewhere on Facebook so it's obviously some liberal thing going around.
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Anyway, that's a great photo of Obama in front of that flag draped behind him.Â
@Playanekes  What, that "pompass ass" look?
Pretty thin gruel here, guys. Nothing that rises to the level of "They have WMDs. And connections to Al-Qaeda - trust me!"
 @Max Quinn For all the disdain that I had for slick Dick Cheney and VP Bush II, and the lies that cost over 4000 US service men and women their lies, I'm getting pretty sick of seeing President Obama and his co-horts standing on the corpses of the Sandy Hook victims to promote 'meaningful gun control legislation' that would not have had any effect in the afforementioned massacre.Â
 @MarkKpic  @Max Quinn Best go out an buy another gun, that'll work!
@dynamited77 @MarkKpic @Max Quinn Such a well thought out and reasoned reply, I certainly will take your excellent points into consideration.
 @dynamited77  @MarkKpic  @Max Quinn Magpul and Glock don't mind.
Â
They're on our side.
 @Max Quinn No, it's the Syrian government who has WMD and the Egyptian rebels with ties to Al-Qaeda now. Get with the program.
 @Playanekes  @Max Quinn Two interesting points on the WMD thing. The mantra is that "Bush lied". But if you look at the record, it was Clinton who first announced that Iraq had WMD. Bush's mistake was believing anything the Clinton administration put out. Second thing has been neatly forgotten by the media, and many people. In the early days of the Iraq invasion, there were semis of "stuff" headed to Syria. They were called mobile fertilizer manufacturing vans. But who really needs mobile manufacturing? They were actually, as only a few had courage to report, mobile chemical weapons factories. And they ended up in Syria, who is now threatening to use these Iraqi weapons.
@deejm2112 @Nobody @Playanekes @Max Quinn But you do remember that chemical weapons attack on the Kurds first happened we blamed it on Iran because Iraq was our friend and at war with our enemy Iran so it was blamed on Iran.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halabja_poison_gas_attack
Then, as if by magic, when Iraq (who we sold the chemical weapons to in the first place) became our enemy, we need to look into that Halabja massacre again and gosh darn wouldn't you know it.....it was actually Iraq and not Iran.....
"the first casualty of war is the truth"
You said it!
@Nobody @Playanekes @Max Quinn "Bush's mistake was believing anything the Clinton administration put out. "
No Bush actually used that and faulty, cherry picked intelligence, forged documents, and a "high ranking defector" with "intimate knowledge" to perpetuate the lie and invade Iraq.  Of course they forgot to tell us this "defector" was known as very unreliable, but they did mention the WMD's and AQ many times!
Source of Forged Niger-Iraq Uranium Documents Identified
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/04/international/europe/04italy.html?_r=0
Iraqi Defector 'Curveball' Admits WMD Lies, Is Proud of Tricking U.S.
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/iraqi-defector-al-janabi-codenamed-curveball-admits-wmd/story?id=12922213
Colin Powell demands answers over Curveball's WMD lies
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/feb/16/colin-powell-cia-curveball
 @Max Quinn  @Nobody  @Playanekes Clinton started it with Operation Desert Fox in 1998.
 @Nobody  @Playanekes Good point. That's why Clinton launched the unfunded invasion of Iraq in 1998... oh wait...Â
 @Nobody  @Playanekes  @Max Quinn Clinton didn't lie, Iraq had weapons of mass destruction at the time, they used chemical weapons on the Kurds during GH's presidency, and like any evil smart psycho dictator would do, they were moved out before the US invaded Iraq (the second time). By the time we got there they were long gone.
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Also, I remember a testimony from a little girl claiming Iraqi soldiers took babies out of incubators and left them to die, only to be found that the statement was not true and she had been coached......they lie anyway, the first casualty of war is the truth.
He also LOVES to always mention that women make $0.77 to every man's $1.00. This is absolutely NOT true. How he and his beloved feminist come up with this (BAD) stat is they lump every woman and man together while ignoring that men and women do different forms of work. Generally, men are the ones who do the physically demanding/ dangerous jobs that pay more. I don't ever see the feminist crying about women being a minority -- or discriminated against -- in coal mines. It's well know that young women are gaining more jobs over young men. And on top of that, earning more than young men. I'm not complaining about that. But I am exhausted of this bad stat being used as if it's 100% accurate especially in a time when so many men lost their jobs due to the recession. As a woman, it's just amazing to me how we to make up bad stats to try to help my gender.Â
@Lisa As this is based on fact checking, can you let us know where you get your 'facts' from?
 @Lisa That's interesting because every single study shows that women who do the same exact job as men make less, it's a fact, it's repeatable with data. It has nothing to do with men working manly muscle jobs which, duh, would be mostly men, possible a few "Helgas".
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Here's a recent study: http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2013/02/05/171196714/the-jobs-with-the-biggest-and-smallest-pay-gaps-between-men-and-women?utm_source=npr&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=20130212
 @deejm2112  @Lisa Well that's weird because I make $40/hr and the women I work with who do the same job also make $40/hr, and the woman I worked with previous to that made the same pay as the men in the same job.
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They just get promoted up a little faster.
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I just don't see it.
@Playanekes @deejm2112 @Lisa Hey that's cool, you have a fair employer, statistically speaking, many are not and virtually every study proves it and it's not political when EVERY study supports the claim.
 @trololol  @deejm2112  @Lisa The women I work with are all pilots. ie, Achievers. And they're all d-mned good ones. Maybe that's the difference between my kind of people and yours.Â
 @deejm2112  @Lisa ...or maybe it's just that all the women I work with, including the Lt. Colonel, aren't losers. They don't seem to have a problem hanging in there with the men, so, maybe it's the QUALITY of people we should look at. I worked with some very, very respected women of all ages and you never hear them whining about stuff like this. It's always some political guy with statistics...
 @deejm2112  @Lisa Which woman?
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"The all-the-women-I-work-with" woman, or did you just completely ignore that part?
@deejm2112 @Playanekes @Lisa Ha HA...Ka-Pow
 @Playanekes  @Lisa OMG!!! ALL the studies are wrong because of this one woman!
 @Lisa Please, shut up.Â
I had the same job as a man for 15 years and he made $50,000 more than I did. Same education. Same job. Same responsibilities. My department was bigger. My employee survey results were better. But for years I lobbied for better pay for women but it fell on deaf ears because it's a BOYS CLUB in Corporation America and when you are trapped beneath the glass ceiling and trying to raise a family it's painful to hear other women spout the BS too.Â
The pay has gotten better over the years, but has in no why gotten equal. Women do physically demanding jobs too. There are police women, fire fighting women, EMT's, doctors, lawyers, ditch-digging women - you name it, there are probably women doing those jobs too. And they deserve the same pay as the men doing those jobs.  Doing tell me the pay is 100% the same - because it isn't.
<End Rant>
@Justanother1   Jeesh, maybe you're just not worth those other people. That, or you need to get a spine and show your employer what you are worth - with hard facts and numbers. That, or you need to work for another company. Neither myself, nor my female friends have the "problem" that you claim to have.
@Justanother1Â @wondering With all due respect, perhaps you just weren't worth what you thought you were. Businesses have a way of paying their best employees very well as to not let them go.
@wondering I was told that he was "grandfathered" in under a hiring clause from another company and there was nothing they could do about it.  It was nothing to do with me not being worth what those other people might be worth.  Thanks for insulting me and my proven hard work.Â
 @Justanother1  @Lisa All the women I know make just as much per flight hour as the men I know... they're just more likely to come up for promotion and harder to deal with in the workplace. My spouse, who is an HR manager accustomed to dealing with woman-on-woman workplace drama--not to mention negotiating wages, salaries and labor relations can't even talk about most of it.
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What you should have done is gotten a different job. I made $15,000 per year more than the coworkers of either sex in the same position because the company considered me that much more qualified.
@Playanekes @trololol @Justanother1 @Lisa Doesn't seem that bad to me...Lot's of aircraft up.
@Playanekes @trololol @Justanother1 @Lisa oooh oooh oooh Mr. Kotter Mr. Kotter....someone is in to aviation! I win.
 @trololol  @Justanother1  @Lisa Yep. All of my students canceled today. I'll give you a hint and see if you're smart enough to figure out why:
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KTTD 131953Z 28003KT 10SM OVC017...
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@Playanekes @Justanother1 @Lisa And look at you now, commenting all day.
@Justanother1 @Lisa 50k less? Jeeze what job is that?
 @Justanother1  @Lisa That has not been the experience my wife or any of her friends have had. Maybe you need to find a better company to work for?
@Justanother1 Sadly when a company ends up with a desperate need for a particular talent they may pay much more then its worth. Once in the door at that high rate they can't take it away. In my industry it really comes down to how hard you sell yourself and what the job market is like at the time. Although in the current economy everyone I know that lost their job and was lucky enough to get a new one they ended up making 25% less due to the high level of competition and poor market.
@FreedomRocks @Justanother1 @Lisa  I did finally leave that company.  They told me he was "grandfathered" in under a hiring agreement and there was nothing they could do about it. I wouldn't have even known about his pay except he constantly bragged about it. I never told him my salary, but mentioned to my manager (also a woman) and she mentioned it to HR because he was making about the same amount as she was making at that time!Â
 @Lisa * "Don't" tell me - not "Doing"  -   sorry.