Foreign policy fireworks: Face-off before election

BOCA RATON, Fla. (AP) - President Barack Obama sharply challenged Mitt Romney on foreign policy in their final campaign debate Monday night, accusing him of "wrong and reckless leadership that is all over the map." The Republican coolly responded, "Attacking me is not an agenda" for dealing with a dangerous world.
With just 15 days remaining in an impossibly close race for the White House, Romney took the offensive, too. When Obama said the U.S. and its allies have imposed crippling sanctions on Iran to halt nuclear weapons development, the Republican challenger responded that the U.S. should have done more. He declared repeatedly, "We're four years closer to a nuclear Iran."
Though their third and last face-to-face debate was focused on foreign affairs, both men reprised their campaign-long disagreements over the U.S. economy — the top issue by far in opinion polls — as well as energy, education and other domestic issues.
The two men did find accord on more than one occasion when it came to foreign policy.
Each stressed unequivocal support for Israel when asked about a U.S. response if the Jewish state were attacked by Iran.
"If Israel is attacked, we have their back," said Romney — moments after Obama vowed, "I will stand with Israel if Israel is attacked."
Both also said they oppose direct U.S. military involvement in the efforts to topple Syrian President Bashir Assad.
The debate produced none of the finger-pointing and little of the interrupting that marked the presidential rivals' debate last week, when Obama needed a comeback after a listless performance in their first meeting on Oct. 3.
The final debate behind them, both men are embarking on a home-stretch whirlwind of campaigning. The president is slated to speak in six states during a two-day trip that begins Wednesday and includes a night aboard Air force One as it flies from Las Vegas to Tampa. Romney intends to visit two or three states a day.
Already four million ballots have been cast in early voting in more than two dozen states.
Obama appears on course to win states and the District of Columbia that account for 237 of the 270 electoral votes needed for victory. The same is true for Romney in states with 191 electoral votes. The battlegrounds account for the remaining 110 electoral votes: Florida (29), North Carolina (15), Virginia (13), New Hampshire (4), Iowa (6), Colorado (9), Nevada (6), Ohio (18) and Wisconsin (10).
On Monday night, Obama said more than once that Romney had been "all over the map" with his positions. And not necessarily putting new distance between the two men. In fact, Romney offered rare praise for the administration's war efforts in Afghanistan.
The former Massachusetts governor said the 2010 surge of 33,000 U.S. troops was a success and asserted that efforts to train Afghan security forces are on track to enable the U.S. and its allies to put the Afghans fully in charge of security by the end of 2014. He said that U.S. forces should complete their withdrawal on that schedule; previously he has criticized the setting of a specific withdrawal date.
When it came to Iran, Romney stressed that war is a last option to prevent Tehran from developing a nuclear weapon, softening the hawkish tone that had been a hallmark of his campaign.
And Romney barely addressed the simmering dispute over the administration's handling of the attack on the U.S. Consulate in Benghazi, Libya, that killed the U.S. ambassador and three other Americans.
But the debate was hardly all sweetness and light.
On the Middle East, Romney said that despite early hopes, the ouster of despotic regimes in Egypt, Libya and elsewhere over the past year has resulted in a "rising tide of chaos." He said the president has failed to come up with a coherent policy to grapple with change sweeping the region, and he added ominously that an al-Qaida-like group has taken over northern Mali.
Anticipating one of Obama's most frequent campaign assertions, Romney said of the man seated nearby, "I congratulate him on taking out Osama bin Laden and taking on the leadership of al-Qaida. But we can't kill our way out of this mess. ... We must have a comprehensive and robust strategy."
More than a half hour later, Obama returned to the subject, saying that Romney had once said it wasn't worth moving heaven and earth to catch one man, a reference to the mastermind behind the 9/11 terror attacks.
"You said we should ask Pakistan for permission," Obama said. "And if we had asked Pakistan permission, we would not have gotten him. And it was worth moving heaven and earth to get him."
The president said he had ended the war in Iraq, was on a path to end the U.S. combat role in Afghanistan and has vowed to bring justice to the Benghazi attackers.
He also jabbed at Romney's having said during the campaign that Russia is the United States' No. 1 geopolitical foe.
"Governor, when it comes to our foreign policy you seem to want the policies of the 1980s, just like you want to import the social policies of the 1950s and the economic policies in the 1920s," Obama said.
Obama took a mocking tone after Romney, criticizing the administration's Pentagon budget, said disapprovingly the U.S. Navy has fewer ships than at any time since the end of World War I.
"I think Governor Romney maybe hasn't spent enough time looking at how our military works. You mentioned the Navy, for example, that we have fewer ships than we did in 1916. Well, Governor, we also have fewer horses and bayonets because the nature of our military has changed. We have these things called aircraft carriers where planes land on them."
The televised debate brought no cessation to other campaigning.
Obama's campaign launched a television ad in Florida that said the president ended the war in Iraq and has a plan to do the same in Afghanistan, accusing Romney of opposing him on both. It was not clear how often the ad would air, given the fall's overall focus on the economy.
Vice President Joe Biden, campaigning in Canton, Ohio, emphasized differences between the two candidates on the war in Afghanistan.
"We will leave Afghanistan in 2014, period. They say it depends," he said. "Ladies and gentlemen, like everything with them, it depends. It depends on what day you find these guys."
Romney's running mate, Wisconsin Rep. Paul Ryan, was in Colorado. "We are in the midst of deciding the kind of country we're going to be, the kind of people we're going to be, for a generation," he said.
Whatever the outcome of the final face-to-face confrontation, the debates have left an imprint on the race. Romney was widely judged the winner of the first debate over a listless president on Oct. 3, and he has risen in polls in the days since. Obama was much more energetic in the second.
Monday night marked the third time in less than a week that the president and his challenger shared a stage, following the feisty 90-minute town-hall-style meeting last Tuesday on Long Island and a white-tie charity dinner two night later where gracious compliments flowed and barbs dipped in humor flew.
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Espo reported from Washington.
Copyright 2012 The Associated Press.
Obama vowed, "I will stand with Israel if Israel is attacked."...how about protection BEFORE Israel is attacked...or does Obama plan to wait until Israel is wiped from the earth much like our 4 Americans in Libya were, then try to cover up his inept policies that is surely leading to annihilation by Mahmoud Ahmadinejad ?...what about the  âscores of known radical Islamist s that made hundreds of visits to the Obama White House, meeting with top administration officials.â recordsâ that have identified many of the visitors as belonging to groups serving as fronts for the Muslim Brotherhood, Hamas and other Islamic militant groups...and Obama could not find time to meet with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu......
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He has provocation . Iran want the country wiped off the map. I think IsreaL IS SHOWING GREAT RESTRAINT!!!
What so great about Isreal?
There is a half dozen candidates for president but we get this tripe, the two party monopoly and thier bought and paid for media stooges have a well scripted "story telling" time... If this were a real democracy every candidate would be included... But since we have a rigged election with two major puppets ,bought and paid for by corporations, we have fascism.
If we are so inept as voters that we can be easily swayed by the quality of 'zingers' during a presidential debate, we just as well elect Dennis Miller or Jon Stewart. Zing.
 @last boyscout We all seem pretty swayed by blatant lies. Zingers at least break the routine...
 @Max Quinn I doubt that you or I are swayed by the lies. The general public though, that's a scary thought. Have you heard any of those 'man on the street'  interviews where they tell us why they are supporting a particular candidate? Yesterday I heard several college students answers, to hear them speak was pathetic, scary and a great example of the disintegration of our education system. They sounded more like 13 year old's than college students. (My apologies to 13 year old's, I mean no disrespect).
"To hear them speak was pathetic" Who are you to judge someone.? You would have been a good Nazi boyscout.Â
 @Max Quinn It's makes me wonder how in the world have we made it this far. But I suppose that's where the line "Hope springs eternal" comes into play. Good luck to you Max.
 @last boyscout I have heard those and have had similar reactions. It stuns me sometimes what a person will base their vote on.
Obama's plan for the next four years is for us (you and I) to use our paychecks to buy or bail out more battery powered car fiasco's. Just like the TWO that have failed and filed for bankruptcy in the last two weeks. Obama has a record of giving our tax dollars to failing companies. We can't afford four more years of this failing presidency.
 @last boyscout  No, we cannot afford 4 more years: Time: Money: By any measure I can think of.Â
 @last boyscout The last I heard, there are 1900 separate investigations of malfeasance or other wrong-doing into bailed-out companies.. 'it's the Chicago way'.
The fact-checkers are out:Â Â I'm sure you'll find others, but for the moment:
Obama Lied       4
Romney Lied      1
Draw                   2
 (both true as far as they went) Â
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Obama lied on cost of the wars.
Obama lied on Romney's Afghan departure date.
Obama lied on Romney's Russia #1 threat.
Obama Lied of al Qaeda decimated and running. (Obama actually stopped using running last night).
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Romney lied on 'apology tour'.
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Both were correct in what they said on dealing with China (Chinese Tires) and troop drawdown in Iraq.
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Obama clearly 'won the (3rd) debate'.  (That's my opinion.)  Â
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But the real question is "Can Obama Lead us back into prosperity and security?"
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Now, can we get down to the real work? Here are three things I think we should work on.
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First, to get out of this mess taxes are going to have to go UP. This didn't start with GW (as Obama claims); it was 50 years in the making.  We have to pay for what we are putting on the credit card. And we are - and have been - paying for the recovery on the card.   I do disagree with Romney on some of his tax plan; for example, the rich need to be taxed (and pay) more. Â
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Second, we have to start working on paying down the debt: A real plan.  It cannot contain more hidden debt like "I will bring home the troops and put those savings to work on rebuilding infrastructure". Those monies don't exist to begin with; they're borrowed.
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Something like the Bowles-Simpson Plan - Most don't actually understand much about this deficit reduction plan.  By the way - we have already spent the draw-down money and burned the year.Â
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Third, we need real reform for SS and Medicare. We need to shore those plans up and consider alternatives for the future.
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Notice Jobs is absent.  Government doesnât create jobs.  Producing goods and services, needed by others, at a fair price, with quality, in a timely manner, create jobs.  Government has to succeed with 1 thru 3 to set the environment.
This is one former Dem, now Independent that will not be voting for Obama. Â My reasons include:
appointing Janet Napolitano to DHS director, Eric Holder to AG; following through on the 2nd round of TARP bailouts, a near complete disregard and disdain for transparency and accountability, Fast & Furious debacle, and, implementing of an amnesty for illegal aliens by executive administration instead of passing a law in Congress. No thanks Mr. Obama. Â I voted for you once, and I won't make that mistake again.Â
 @ThePosterFormerlyKnownAsPhredE Amen!
"I think Governor Romney maybe hasn't spent enough time looking at how our military works. You mentioned the Navy, for example, that we have fewer ships than we did in 1916. Well, Governor, we also have fewer horses and bayonets because the nature of our military has changed. We have these things called aircraft carriers where planes land on them."Â Â http://www.cnn.com/2011/10/06/us/afghanistan-horse-soldiers-memorial/index.html
I don't understand MItt. Can anyone tell me where he actually stands?  I also don't understand why a republican would vote for an anchor baby?
 @pattypepper If you have watched and listened to all three debates, and still do not know where Romney stands, you may be practicing selective hearing due to your ideology. It's not a fault, it's natural. Â
babble babble but you didn't answer the question did you
 @pattypepper Are you always this cranky right before your check comes in the mail? Run out of "smoke" money?
Romney's website changes faster then you change your diapers last boyscout
 @pattypepper Try going to the Romney website, you will find the answers there.Â
The last debate will not change the minds of most voters. Unless a standing president that is petulant rude interruptive and occasionally stretches the truth as far as what his opponent has said, then Obama is your man. But I'm not a fan of liars, so I voted for Romney.Â
OBAMA!!!! As a liberal Oregonian, I want a president who has absolutely no leadership experience prior to running for office. I also want to show that I am not a racist. Which is why I voted for Obama in the first place. You see as an Oregonian I strive to increase my local government, which is why METRO is the only regional government in the U.S. we need more government, because we are clueless how to run our lives and do daily functions without one. With a democrat in office, we know he is going to help us, because he is going to continue the fight to increase federal handouts for the poor and middle class. We need this so that we do not strive to become something great. As a media matters viewer, msnbc watcher, and KPOJ listener; I am reminded daily about how each race is fairing with our beloved leader. In order to finally allow blacks, asians, hispanics, and homosexuals to get ahead in life, we need to force government to force businesses and government entities to get these people in a hire position. A promotion not based on qualifications and work experience, but by race. Remember is only racist if you promote a person for being white, its not if they are a minority. Which is why Obama was elected in the first place. I hope he continues his path of giving me a free hand out. I enjoy 2 years of paid vacation, plus I get a free phone! Lets continue the fight to destroy this selfish country so that the UN can take over and control our lives.Â
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From the mindless sheeple of Oregon,
Obama supporter
Americans are impatient and have very short memories. Does no one remember how just four years ago this country was on the brink of financial collapse? Millions of jobs were lost in 2008 before Obama took office. Home prices were plunging, the stock market was plunging. Things may not be back to 'normal', but we didn't fall off a cliff financially, we did not end up in a depression and all indications are that jobs and the economy are improving. Fewer Americans are dying on foreign soil and Bin Laden is dead. I certainly don't agree with everything Obama has done, but he is not the evil demon so many make him out to be. And that deficit? How else was this country going to pay for those unfunded wars and taking care of the millions of folks who had lost their jobs? He's had some hits and he's had some misses, no doubt; show me a president who hasn't.
 @catherine.henry 'and all indications are that jobs and the economy are improving.' Really? Very doubtful. Chronic 8% unemployment does not indicate that the job market and economy are improving. Your hero says he is all for jobs one minute, then kills projects that would create those jobs the next. Don't you think it was rather interesting that after your omnipotent messiah got handed a beatdown in the first debate, the unemployment rate suddenly dropped to 7.8%?
 @theobserver  @catherine.henry an "Inconvenient Truth", Sir. :D Not to mention the books are "cooked" to only show the number of people looking for work actively. That doesn't include people who have no choice but to be underemployed, or have lost UI benefits, or given up looking. The "real" unemployment numbers are closer to 12-13%, if not higher. That's a terrifying testament to the economy.
 @theobserver  @catherine.henry And, in addition, he has demonstrated a strange propensity to want to increase the number of foreign persons allowed to work here (legally and illegally) and directly compete with vulnerable Americans for scarce jobs. For him to harp on his 'economic successes' seems to be tragically detached from the situation many Americans experience at present.
 @catherine.henryÂ
I can't think of a thing that BO has done that has had a positive influence on the country. Could you point when out please?
OR; been by any shopping malls lately? The parking lots are jammed full. I am a middle class American who has seen my home value rise, my friends who were unemployed three years ago have ALL return to work (most with the employer who laid them off) and my 401K is close to where it was before it lost $80K. Notice how many new cars are on the road? If you really cared, you'd not be asking me to point out the obvious signs of recovery. If you want to see past your own little world, you'd find a wealth of information and not have to ask others what is in plain sight.
 @catherine.henry yes Americans do have short memories that's how you can get away with saying the things you've just written.Â
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The stock market was plunging because the housing market had priced itself out of existence as a result of easy loans and reduce criteria for those loans started by Jimmy Carter and enhanced by every president thereafter. Though the banks are at fault for making such loans they were forced into it by Carter's rules telling them that if they didn't loosen their requirements they could not be able to borrow from the federal reserve. So they were over a barrel financially and they started down this path of giving out poorly secured loans.Â
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You're also wrong about fewer Americans dying on foreign soil. Our soldiers are dying at a far increased rate in the last few months than at any other point in the Muslim world wars.
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 bin Laden is dead not because of any efforts of BO but because of our military and the use of water boarding that gave our intelligence community important information.
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 I would also not give BO any accolades for what he's done to the economy and deficit. The vast majority of the money went to his supporters such as acorn and unions that did nothing for the economy.Â
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Also he did not save GM and Chrysler by giving them the loans they asked for. What BO did was to nationalize them stealing money from the stockholders and giving it to his union allies. In a bankruptcy creditors would be paid first and stockholders would get what's left. The union and their pensions would have gotten nothing.Â
 Nationalizing is something a socialist country does.
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 @ORthinker  @catherine.henry Wow, I don't agree with you on some of your other views, ORthinker, but on this one you and I are rock solid united.
 @catherine.henry Wow. I'm a cracker--but you need to pull your head out of the sand and do some fact checking. Not to mention, Obama violates due process of law by terrorizing the people in Pakistan with drone strikes, randomly killing people he believes are terrorist threats to the US. I am no friend of the middle east, but I also do not believe that any human life should be considered collateral damage, especially not arbitrarily because they could possibly hold a grudge against the US. Welcome to the age of Minority Report and Big Brother if this passes for OK in America--how long until those exact same principles are applied to the American People, Ms. Henry? How about the fact that a doctor posing as a medical official administering vaccinations *illegally* obtained DNA that led the Feds to Bin Laden's doorstep? While I don't mind that a huge threat to US Security was eliminated, I DO have a very large problem with the fact that the way it was done has now terrified those in the middle east so greatly they no longer allow individuals from organizations like doctors without borders into their homes to vaccinate their children. Does the fact that possibly millions of children will die of truly horrible, completely preventable diseases justify the end that Osama Bin Laden is dead?
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BTW--if you look at the unadjusted unemployment numbers, the numbers have gone up, not down. More Americans have died under Obama's watch and "friendly" fire in the quarter of the war he has managed than the other 3/4 combined. Who slept and campaigned in Vegas while an American ambassador and his envoy were killed on sovereign American soil and their bodies abused and paraded through the streets?
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I just cannot believe how people can claim to be humanitarian and turn a blind eye to the gross injustices he has done to everyone, across the board.
@Melissa Stidham-Clary @catherine.henry  catherine.henry wants us to voter on a novetly all over again and that is just sad since The novelty of the Obaminator has cost us jobs and lives. The I think the reason he was elected in the first place is the same reason Hillary would have been elected if she got the democratic nomination ( and it sure as hell was not on the qualifications to do the job!). Well I am not voting on a novelty I am voting on my future , not a novelty. I am voting for someone who can nrun a buisness adnfinance. Not someone whos own family cant decide on if he was born in HI or kenya. catherine.henry before you say I will : IM A CRACKER HISPANIC.
@Melissa Stidham-Clary @catherine.henry; reading your response makes me believe even more in what I said in my first comment.
@catherine.henry He is a closet Marxist, an America hater, a closet Muslim, and quite possiblly the worst President in the last 100 years. Bin Laden may be dead, but Al Qaeda is not "on it's heels." It is quite alive, and just murdered 4 Americans in Libya. They were murdered after repeated requests for more security, denied by Hillary Clinton and B. Hussein Obama, simply because they didn't want to admit their middle east strategy of appeasement isn't working.
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God, how can you be so incredibly obtuse?
@Derek2mk
I am not an Obama fan but I always hear that he is a Socialist and a Marxist.Â
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1.    Define Marxism. Donât cut at paste from the web I would like to hear your definition of it.
2.    Can you list 5 things Obama has done since becoming president that has brought out country closer to Socialism and Marxism.....please be specific!
 @Derek2mk wow, you've really been brainwashed hardcore by the righty propoganda, haven't you. Do you have any idea how ridiculous you look right now to sane people?Â
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Man.... it never ceases to amaze me, these people.
 @brautigan  @Derek2mkÂ
Derk2mk doesn't seem brainwashed to me.Â
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I think an example of being brainwashed would be to vote for president we know nothing about. Overlooking his own admission to Muslim background and influence, overlooking he attends a church for over 20 years and doesn't know his pastor is anti-American and antiwhite, overlooking that he has no governmental experience to speak of, overlooking that he tells you he wants to fundamentally change this country and no one asks him what that means, overlooking that his aunt says he was born in Kenya and then she suddenly dies, overlooking that he applies for a college grant as a foreign national, overlooking that he refuses to divulge where the most of his campaign money came from, overlooking that all his appointees are admitted socialists or Marxists, and how about those Czars who needs a Congress.
@brautigan @Derek2mk No, he has no idea, brautigan - in more ways than one.
When theology has brought you to faith you cannot be a Democrat.
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 This political cycle has brought forth a refining of the Democratic platform. Unfortunately the refining has brought it even further away from the tenets of faith. So much so that during the Democratic convention it was pointed out the platform never once mentioned the word God in any of the planks that make up the Democratic vision of America. I happen to be watching this performance on television when a voice vote was used to insert God into the platform. As a committee member read from the Teleprompter telling him that he heard a majority wanting to insert the word God and overwhelming thunder of boos was heard from the delegates. Two important aspects of the Democratic Party were on display in this behavior, one there is no interest in the Democratic Party to even imply that they are subject to God and that the Democratic elites will even override the wishes of their own in order to change the country to their desired form of government.
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 There are those that will tell you that this country is not a Christian country.  To do so they fall in one or more category of the deceived, the uneducated, blind to history, liars and the most abundant those with an agenda to take freedom from the world.
 Throughout the major documents that formed this country you will find a reference to God and faith therein. Why is it then so important to some to deny the founding premise from theology that made up our foundations?
 It is only by weakening our faith and denying its importance and relevance to our society that self-centered destructive behavior can be promoted, for biblical theology teaches us the details of right and wrong that humanly we would rather ignore.
 One has only to look at the Democratic platform its application to society and the results thereof to see how the fabric of this country has been deteriorated and caused each of the problems facing the nation that you most likely experience and can pull from headlines every day.
 Though there are many let's just look at the big three that I'm sure every American is aware of.
 Abortion; plainly put it is killing. I don't think anyone would argue that killing is appropriate. Why then does the Democratic Party support the idea of killing the unborn who have done nothing wrong in other words totally innocent killing.Â
 The argument is a baby is nothing until it is born, then do nothing. Killing takes an action and abortion is an action. Abortion is often argued that it's a woman's right to choose. Yes the woman does have the right to choose and that would be to abstain from the action that causes life to form there by not requiring the action of killing. So abortion attacks faith in two ways, it diminishes the sanctity of life and it promotes promiscuity thereby a destruction of moral values.
Now that I referred to morality. In recent decades there's been a social movement to redefine morality sometimes it's called social morality. Let's make it clear there is only one morality it is outlined in the theology of the Bible.  Â
 The so-called social morality really comes down to an individual thinking he's a good person so whatever he does must be moral. That means the goalpost for morality will move every time a new sin is considered acceptable. With no definite boundaries there really are no boundaries. As we have seen the continuation of morality's decline show us eventually all sins in social morality will disappear.
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 Homosexuality; Again the direct confrontation with those who have a faith being pushed by the Democratic Party. Like the 10 commandments in the Old Testament where we read all the (Thou shall nots) the Bible makes it clear the sin of homosexuality is not accepted by God and never will be. Christians are called to love the sinner but not the sin, if the sinner will not give up the sin then they are to be shunned. The homosexual lifestyle should not be protected, promoted or allowed to become acceptable part of society. The Democratic Party does all three in violation of theology teachings.
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 Financial; We've all heard the numbers that represent our national debt though very few of us can conceive just how much work those dollars represent. Let's remember that a dollar is actually a representation of the value of your physical labor put into a form that can be exchanged for the labor of others who do professions you cannot.
 Right now this nation owes more to other people that our work and the goods created from our work could pay back in an entire year.
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( A house divided cannot stand. I is a quote we should have all heard in grade school and yet internally if you have faith and support the Democratic party you are in conflict with your own beliefs. So if you understand and have faith in the teachings of theology you cannot belong to a group that confronts that belief at every point.
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 @ORthinker I spit in the face of your God, ok? I really do. He's a joke. He's a fairy tale, and it's sad, sad, sad that you need the ghost in the sky to inform you of your instinctual morality. Really pathetic. By the way, you're sacred book condones child sex slavery.
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Nice...
 @brautigan you really wrong. I'd ask you to point out where it talks about child sex is being okay or slavery being okay for that matter. The Bible does talk about them as having existed like a history book might that doesn't mean it's being condoned.Â
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having looked at the cover of book doesn't mean you've read or understand what's written within.
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@ORthinker @brautigan I've read the book from cover to cover mant times during my Christian education and I've come to the conclusion that if you are going to put forward the ancient laws of the old testament,picking and choosing in order to chastise certain people and ignore others is selfish on your part.
 @ORthinker  I was raised a Catholic, so I know a fair amount about the Bible. Your religious-political tirade against homosexuals in previous posts is proof of your lunacy about all of this. I really do not understand how Christians get off on railing the gay community and reciting three Bible verses over and over and think they're doing them a favor. There are also inconspicuous verses in the Bible that condone the public stoning of unwed mothers, prostitutes, and even "unruly" sons, you know (Deut. 21:18-21). There is a verse in Deuteronomy about how any men whose testicles have been crushed cannot enter heaven. In Genesis, Lot's daughters both have sex with and become pregnant by him. In Judges, a man offers up a concubine in place of his male house guest to a bunch of crazed men who basically gang-rape her, and then the husband chops her body into twelve pieces which he sends to different tribes in Israel. There is some wild stuff in the Bible, and I find ludicrous that you place so much emphasis on minute verses that purportedly condemn homosexuals and harass people rather than focus on the core Ten Commandments and the more important teachings of the Bible.
 @ORthinker I'm a long time conservative Republican. This country is not and should never be a Christian country. It is the land of the free to worship as they see fit. Likewise, your judgment of homosexuality is something that I cannot agree with. People should be allowed to love one another regardless of whether they are of the same sex. I can agree with you on the fiscal cliff of socialism we seem to be driving off. And I believe that Obama would only continue to drive us off that cliff. Therefore, I cast my vote for Romney...even though it wont matter in Oregon.
 @Dirtman unfortunately I agree that this country probably is no longer primarily a Christian nation but one only has to look at the founding fathers writings to know that it was intended to be. The founding fathers followed the intent of the Holy Spirit to give every person the right to choose what they believed. It is unfortunate that each day a higher percentage of people choose to turn away from God and put themselves in his place.
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You must call into question if you claim Christianity as a result of your support of the homosexual lifestyle.Â
1 Corinthians 6:9
Leviticus 18;22
Deuteronomy 22:5
Romans 1:18 - 36
@Melissa Stidham-Clary I may disagree with you politically but I find your views on religon to be spot on.And your intllegence is to be commended.
@ORthinker @Dirtman You listed the Old Testament passages.I thought after tege ressursection that Christians are no longer bound to the rules of the old testament.Why do you pick and choose.When was the last time you ate shrimp or got a haircut? As far as the new testament passages are concerned,you people seem to gloss over the parts of people being drunkards and prideful and go "straight" for the gays.If you were to abide by all of the passages in the old and new testament,I'm afraid that your heaven will be a ghost town "so to speak".
@Melissa Stidham-Clary I often wonder why the gays seem to be one of the main focal points of these folks?
 @ORthinker  Homosexuality is not a lifestyle. I don't know why you people cannot get over this. Nobody chooses to be gay. It's impossible. End of. While the rest of society is focusing on more important things, you can continue to wallow in the fact that there are good gay men and women out there and that you cannot cure them of their orientation which has been shown time and again to be psychologically hardwired and of no fault of their own. Gays have been around since the beginning of humanity. People with zero critical thinking skills like yourself whose minds have been monopolized out of fear, however, are a dying breed.
 @Melissa Stidham-ClaryÂ
I agree this nation was never intended to be a theocracy nor never has it been. That is not to say that Christian principles were to be violated by the government and its actions but clearly the laws and attitudes laid out in our founding by our forefathers copy the intent of moral beliefs.Â
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Our forefathers saw England deteriorated into a virtual dictatorship as the government leaders used the Church of England to wielded a heavy influence over the people using law supposedly promoted by the church to control the people. You can imagine when a society is greatly connected to their church and their faith if the church and government are working together telling the people to do something it has a lot more impact than just having one entity saying the people should do this or that. Â So when you see the words separation of church and state (which never existed in the old government documents) the intent here was not the concept of allowing the church to control the government but to prevent the government from controlling the people through the authority of the church.Â
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So more accurately the statement should be separation of the government from the church.
If this country was to be a nation governed by religion, then why did one of the founding fathers (Thomas Jefferson) write this in regards to religion and government? "I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church & State." You are welcome to practice your religion and beliefs, sir. However, the US is NOT, and NEVER WAS, intended to be a theocracy. Instead it was to be a nation free from persecution of individuals based on their religion and a country based on morality.  I have my relationship with god, and you quite clearly have yours. But if I came to your church and your pastor or other members came at me with your attitude, I would never set foot in your establishment again. I reiterate my position that religion is about loving one's neighbor and refraining from judgment (both virtues promoted in the bible and Jesus' teachings) not in judging others or condemning their choices.
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This sort of religious righteousness and hatred mongering is why people are running from Christianity in droves. Those capable of thinking for themselves beyond a book written and re-written a thousand times, by not always unbiased transcribers, live in fear of the extremism and intolerance some expressed viewpoints represented--on both sides of the spectrum.
 @Dirtman  @ORthinker This country was founded by Christians. People like George Washington, Noah Webster could actually quote the bible chapter & verse.
@ORthinker We are governed by the Constitution not your bible.American citizens are not obligated to follow your religon and abide by it's repressive rules.
 @noneofyourbizzness  @ORthinkerÂ
you're correct you are not obligated to follow moral values set forth by the Bible or any other. That doesn't mean that our forefathers themselves didn't have moral values but only that they didn't intend to force them upon the people. I was writing to Christians people with moral value that may  mistakenly have belonged to an organization controlled by evil. (Democratic Party)Â
Prior to our Constitution which started our eventual independence was a letter written to England that started this way.
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The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,
When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness
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 All of those that signed this paper lost their fortunes, many lost their lives and family and only a deep-seated conviction could lead someone to knowingly risk all to benefit the nation.
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 @brautigan  I'm a Buddhist and have similar views on this. I believe that all of your thoughts and actions have consequences; if you do bad, bad is returned to you. I also look at my life as a product of the universe which is wholly interconnected and, therefore, I don't necessarily believe in 'death', either. Everything that exists within the universe has existed as long as the universe has-âremember, energy cannot be created or destroyed, only transformed. I view death as more of a dormancy until rebirth occurs. Then again, I'm not sure why I'm telling you any of this because if @ORthinker  had their way, I would probably be imprisoned and on death row right now for "rejecting" Christ.
 @ORthinker  @noneofyourbizzness Newsflash, genius: It doesn't take a ghost in the sky to show me right from wrong. I don't steal because I don't want to be stolen from. I don't murder, because I don't want to be murdered. I don't involve myself in the child sex trade because I don't want my kids to end up the child sex trade.
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And If I followed the Bible on that last point, it would be perfectly fine for me to go buy up a little girl to have "fun" with. Did you know that? Or do you just IGNORE that.
 @ORthinker If you want to live in a theocracy, move to Iran.
 @Max Quinn You might incorrectly consider Iran a biblical theocracy and if you do you're wrong.
 I do want to live in a country that uses biblical principles as the basis of its laws and the basis for behavior in its society. This is what we once had. I would say we have been leaving that biblical principle-based society in a really rapid manner since the 60s. Â
You and the others that follow that wright in one manner or another defiance and disdain for what I originally wrote indeed do belong to the Democratic Party which I believe to be an arm of evil. To that end I was not writing to you I was writing to those that are mistakenly believing that they are Christians and belong to an organization spiritually controlled by the enemy. You of course will not understand this but those who actually do have Christian faith will understand. If you call yourself a Christian and don't understand you need to question your salvation.
 @ORthinker  Again, this line of thinking does not make sense whatsoever and drives my point home that 75% of what you've said on this entire forum is illogical. Just because the founding fathers were influenced by Christian thought when they declared the Constitution DOES NOT mean the entire country should be trapped within the rigid moral boundaries of radical Evangelicals. Freedom of religious thought was one of the main reasons this country exists, and yet you want your specific religious beliefs to have a monopoly on that. Sorry, bud. There is a vast mixture of religious beliefs in this country, so the only option for us as a society is to try and maintain a socially happy medium which, by the way, does not mean "everything ORthinker believes". It's either that or revert to the dark ages and just execute anyone who refuses to avow Christ. Based on what you've stated, I'm assuming you'd prefer the latter.
 @ORthinker  @Max Quinn Lol, you act like if the Bible didn't tell us that murder is wrong, we wouldn't know any better. You're WEAK.
 @noneofyourbizzness  @ORthinker  @MaxÂ
I believe you to be correct that the Constitution doesn't make reference to biblical connections. But to deny that Christianity was a major part of the thinking of the founding fathers and the desires of the people of the nation you'd have to deny the Declaration of Independence, most every document of the day other than the Constitution and not to notice any the phrases on the money in your pocket or the 10 Commandments on the Supreme Court building , the first book printed by the United States intended to be used in our schools was a Bible and many other examples of Christianity referenced by our founding fathers.Â
 This exemption of Christianity in our Constitution was done intentionally because England had a Church of England that required all of the legislators to be a member of. It was at this time the Lutheran break away from the Catholic Church was being formed and Lutheran followers were being forced out of the government. The founding fathers in their wisdom didn't expect that Christianity would be on the downturn but that they didn't want people isolated from the government just because of their theological differences.
 @ORthinker You know nothing about US history, so it's easy for you reach back into the past and pretend the we were once a bible-based society along the reactionary lines you hold so dear.Â
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As someone with 12 years of Catholic education, let me tell you this. I don't consider anything you've written here either Christian or religious. It's little better than voodoo. It's the product of a paranoid mind that can recite bible verses without the slightest understanding topped off with a smattering of deeply conservative (and deeply flawed) economic misunderstandings gussied up to sound like they dribbled from the lips of someone standing at a pulpit.Â
@ORthinker @Max Quinn If the U.S. was founded on the Christian religion, the Constitution would clearly say so--but it does not. Nowhere does the Constitution say: "The United States is a Christian Nation", or anything even close to that. In fact, the words "Jesus Christ, Christianity, Bible, Creator, Divine, and God" are never mentioned in the Constitution-- not even once. Nowhere in the Constitution is religion mentioned, except in exclusionary terms. When the Founders wrote the nation's Constitution, they specified that "no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States." (Article 6, section 3)  This provision was radical in its day-- giving equal citizenship to believers and non-believers alike. They wanted to ensure that no religion could make the claim of being the official, national religion, such as England had.Â
 @ORthinker Um, wow. Thanks. It's always nice to hear from the extremists of each political party. While I may support tenets of your views, I do not believe that it is my job to foist those beliefs on other persons or to cast judgment upon them. In the bible you quote does it not also say "Judge not, lest ye be judged?" What gives you any more right than the far left to try and dictate the mores of the American People? Uber extreme liberals and conservatives are so similar it's laughable--they just choose to get their values from two different books.
 @Melissa Stidham-ClaryÂ
actually it is not my job to pass judgment nor do I, I merely report what the Bible says and these are God's judgments not mine.Â
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 I would infer from your writings that you are not someone that has much use for theology so thereby I wasn't talking to you.Â
 @ORthinker  Actually, you are the one who is making vast judgments on anyone who does not adhere to your theological thinking. There are many Christians who are Democrats. There are more who are Republicans though because the institution of Christianity in the US has been bought into a corporate-political arena and is little more than a total joke at this point. I agree with some of the fundamentals of Republican thought. I do not, however, agree with the party in its current state, which is a far cry from what it was 150 years ago. "Christian" does not need to be synonymous with any particular political party. Then again, I'm a Buddhist, so I can assume by your previous radical posts that I worship idols and am going straight to hell. If that's the case, see you there.
 @catherine.henryÂ
I know particularly here on the West Coast there are those who have their ears closed to any line of thought other than living a selfish life. I also know that my words will not touch their heart for it is surrounded if not controlled by evil.Â
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Also I know it is not my words that will change anyone's heart but it is the Holy Spirit talking to them that will give them the understanding of what I say if I accurately put forth what the Holy Spirit tells me to write.
Quite frankly, I think the only person you're talking to is yourself - you obviously like hearing yourself talk - a lot.
 @Melissa Stidham-ClaryÂ
Unfortunately it is one of the lies of the devil that there are no black and white issues. In my humanity there are some things that I might agree with you on even some of the things you have written here. That's because I'm human but not because it's right. That's why we need a biblical morality that does not change. As humans we are much more attracted to the idea of shades of gray because that gives us room to live with our sins.Â
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As an example I would not have wanted the child with down syndrome and yet each of those children that I have seen have been surprisingly kind and have taught their parents and those they touch much about the virtues of simple thinking and kindness. Perhaps there are things to be taught in the sadness of the other conditions you outline but in the end result believers understand that God is in control and that he has a plan for each of the lives he brings to the world.Â
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It is for these very things you mention that the study of theology will help us understand. I know it's difficult to get by our own human wants and desires, we all fail at this just some more than others.
A @ORthinker again, you'd be amazed. But I've also worked in situations where I've learned that black and white doesn't apply...it's shades of gray. While I would never ever have an abortion and consider the act unimaginably reprehensible...I've also seen/treated child abuse cases that end in death. Would that child have been better off never having been born? Who am I to tell a crack addicted mom she HAS to bring a child she knows she has no interest/ability to care for in to this world, to abuse and neglect? Or a parent who knows their child has a life-threatening disorder that will confine them to a wheelchair, feeding tube, tracheostomy, and the mentality of a 3 year old their highest expectation from life--interspersed with ever more invasive surgeries. Who am I to judge quantity over quality, or judge others for intensely personal decisions.
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I agree completely with you on the budget but it's not Mitt Romney (who--gasp! I AM voting for next month!) who will be the magic bullet. Congress and it's foibles is a reflection of the deep, eroding illness that is society. Do I like it? No. But I also understand acutely that preaching in the tone you did above will close more hearts and ears than it will touch. Follow the example of Ghandi and "Be the change you wish to see in the world." I try to demonstrate by example rather than by preaching presumptive rhetoric--and by clearly writing off as useless or unimportant anyone who might object to what you are saying. Thank god I'm a moderate. The extremes of both sides of the political spectrum scare me silly. No give and take--it's all black and white.
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