Legalized marijuana could be tax windfall, but skeptics abound
DENVER (AP) - A catchy pro-marijuana jingle for Colorado voters considering legalizing the drug goes like this: "Jobs for our people. Money for schools. Who could ask for more?"
It's a bit more complicated than that in the three states — Colorado, Oregon and Washington — that could become the first to legalize marijuana this fall.
The debate over how much tax money recreational marijuana laws could produce is playing an outsize role in the campaigns for and against legalization — and both sides concede they're not really sure what would happen.
At one extreme, pro-pot campaigners say it could prove a windfall for cash-strapped states with new taxes on pot and reduced criminal justice costs.
At the other, state government skeptics warn legalization would lead to costly legal battles and expensive new bureaucracies to regulate marijuana.
In all three states asking voters to decide whether residents can smoke pot, the proponents promise big rewards, though estimates of tax revenue vary widely:
"We all know there's a market for marijuana, but right now the profits are all going to drug cartels or underground," said Brian Vicente, a lawyer working for Colorado's Campaign To Regulate Marijuana Like Alcohol.
But there are numerous questions about the projections, and since no state has legalized marijuana for anything but medical purposes, the actual result is anyone's guess.
Among the problems: No one knows for certain how many people are buying black-market weed. No one knows how demand would change if marijuana were legal. No one knows how much prices would drop, or even what black-market pot smokers are paying now, though economists generally use a national estimate of $225 an ounce based on self-reported prices compiled online.
"It's difficult to size up a market even if it's legal, certainly if it's illegal," said Jeffrey Miron, a Harvard University economist who has studied the national tax implications of the legalization of several drugs.
In Colorado, the $60 million figure comes from Christopher Stiffler, an economist for the nonpartisan Colorado Center on Law & Policy. He looked at the state's potential marijuana market in a study funded by the pro-legalization Drug Policy Alliance. The figure comes from a combination of state and local taxes and projected savings to law enforcement.
Marijuana smokers and dealers, he argued, pay a premium now because the drug is illegal, and if government can find a way to capture that excess, tax collections should rise.
"You can basically take advantage of economies of scale, and the price of marijuana will go down and government can come in and capture the difference," Stiffler said.
The biggest unknown: Would the federal government allow marijuana markets to materialize?
When California voters considered marijuana legalization in 2010, U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder warned that the federal government would not look the other way and allow a state marijuana market in defiance of federal drug law. Holder vowed a month before the election to "vigorously enforce" federal marijuana prohibition. Voters rejected the measure.
Holder hasn't been as vocal this year, but that could change. In early September, nine former heads of the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration called on Holder to issue similar warnings to Colorado, Oregon and Washington.
That political uncertainty could translate into states spending thousands of dollars to defend the laws, critics say.
"I think it's important that this ballot lay out for the voters how much litigation is going to result from this," said Colorado deputy Attorney General Michael Dougherty, a critic of the legislation.
Legalization proponents counter that some of the 17 medical-marijuana states already collect pot taxes in violation of federal law, which does not condone medical use of the drug. Colorado collects several million dollars a year in pot-related taxes, including sales taxes, licensing fees and fees paid by patients to acquire the drug. Oregon last year doubled the cost of a medical marijuana card to raise money for things like clean water and school health programs.
"Marijuana can be regulated, can be taxed, can be sold. We're doing it now, just currently to sick people," said Vicente, the lawyer working on the Colorado legalization campaign.
Backers concede there are big questions about how marijuana would be taxed and regulated, but they are hoping to sell voters on taking the chance.
"We're like Star Trek. We're heading into a new world," said Art Way of the Drug Policy Alliance, answering tax questions recently posed by law students gathered at the University of Denver to learn about Colorado's initiative.
In the end, voters deciding the marijuana questions won't be making up their minds based on the impact on taxes, said Miron, the Harvard economist.
"It's small potatoes," Miron said of marijuana's tax implications. "I'm as firmly in the pro-legalization camp as anybody in the world, but it's because I think smoking marijuana is not the government's business.
"That is the question — not whether it will produce revenue, but whether these drugs should be legal."
___
Cooper reported from Salem, Ore.
Copyright 2012 The Associated Press.
It's a bit more complicated than that in the three states — Colorado, Oregon and Washington — that could become the first to legalize marijuana this fall.
The debate over how much tax money recreational marijuana laws could produce is playing an outsize role in the campaigns for and against legalization — and both sides concede they're not really sure what would happen.
At one extreme, pro-pot campaigners say it could prove a windfall for cash-strapped states with new taxes on pot and reduced criminal justice costs.
At the other, state government skeptics warn legalization would lead to costly legal battles and expensive new bureaucracies to regulate marijuana.
In all three states asking voters to decide whether residents can smoke pot, the proponents promise big rewards, though estimates of tax revenue vary widely:
- Colorado's campaign touts money for school construction. Ads promote the measure with the tag line, "Strict Regulation. Fund Education." State analysts project somewhere between $5 million and $22 million a year. An economist whose study was funded by a pro-pot group projects a $60 million boost by 2017.
- Washington's campaign promises to devote more than half of marijuana taxes to substance-abuse prevention, research, education and health care. Washington state analysts have produced the most generous estimate of how much tax revenue legal pot could produce, at nearly $2 billion over five years.
- Oregon's measure, known as the Cannabis Tax Act, would devote 90 percent of recreational marijuana profits to the state's general fund. Oregon's fiscal analysts haven't even guessed at the total revenue, citing the many uncertainties inherent in a new marijuana market. They have projected prison savings between $1.4 million and $2.4 million a year if marijuana use was legal without a doctor's recommendation.
"We all know there's a market for marijuana, but right now the profits are all going to drug cartels or underground," said Brian Vicente, a lawyer working for Colorado's Campaign To Regulate Marijuana Like Alcohol.
But there are numerous questions about the projections, and since no state has legalized marijuana for anything but medical purposes, the actual result is anyone's guess.
Among the problems: No one knows for certain how many people are buying black-market weed. No one knows how demand would change if marijuana were legal. No one knows how much prices would drop, or even what black-market pot smokers are paying now, though economists generally use a national estimate of $225 an ounce based on self-reported prices compiled online.
"It's difficult to size up a market even if it's legal, certainly if it's illegal," said Jeffrey Miron, a Harvard University economist who has studied the national tax implications of the legalization of several drugs.
In Colorado, the $60 million figure comes from Christopher Stiffler, an economist for the nonpartisan Colorado Center on Law & Policy. He looked at the state's potential marijuana market in a study funded by the pro-legalization Drug Policy Alliance. The figure comes from a combination of state and local taxes and projected savings to law enforcement.
Marijuana smokers and dealers, he argued, pay a premium now because the drug is illegal, and if government can find a way to capture that excess, tax collections should rise.
"You can basically take advantage of economies of scale, and the price of marijuana will go down and government can come in and capture the difference," Stiffler said.
The biggest unknown: Would the federal government allow marijuana markets to materialize?
When California voters considered marijuana legalization in 2010, U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder warned that the federal government would not look the other way and allow a state marijuana market in defiance of federal drug law. Holder vowed a month before the election to "vigorously enforce" federal marijuana prohibition. Voters rejected the measure.
Holder hasn't been as vocal this year, but that could change. In early September, nine former heads of the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration called on Holder to issue similar warnings to Colorado, Oregon and Washington.
That political uncertainty could translate into states spending thousands of dollars to defend the laws, critics say.
"I think it's important that this ballot lay out for the voters how much litigation is going to result from this," said Colorado deputy Attorney General Michael Dougherty, a critic of the legislation.
Legalization proponents counter that some of the 17 medical-marijuana states already collect pot taxes in violation of federal law, which does not condone medical use of the drug. Colorado collects several million dollars a year in pot-related taxes, including sales taxes, licensing fees and fees paid by patients to acquire the drug. Oregon last year doubled the cost of a medical marijuana card to raise money for things like clean water and school health programs.
"Marijuana can be regulated, can be taxed, can be sold. We're doing it now, just currently to sick people," said Vicente, the lawyer working on the Colorado legalization campaign.
Backers concede there are big questions about how marijuana would be taxed and regulated, but they are hoping to sell voters on taking the chance.
"We're like Star Trek. We're heading into a new world," said Art Way of the Drug Policy Alliance, answering tax questions recently posed by law students gathered at the University of Denver to learn about Colorado's initiative.
In the end, voters deciding the marijuana questions won't be making up their minds based on the impact on taxes, said Miron, the Harvard economist.
"It's small potatoes," Miron said of marijuana's tax implications. "I'm as firmly in the pro-legalization camp as anybody in the world, but it's because I think smoking marijuana is not the government's business.
"That is the question — not whether it will produce revenue, but whether these drugs should be legal."
___
Cooper reported from Salem, Ore.
Copyright 2012 The Associated Press.
There will be a lot more pot addiction in the state.....Sad.....We have too many pot addicts around already.
so whats going to stop the black market of weed to avoid the tax?????
 @kramr I'd imagine it's the same thing that stops the black market on alcohol.  Or the black market on bread.  Or any item that can be legally obtained -- the fact is, it's usually a lot cheaper and easier to do it the legal way and this is quite intentional as it allows for easy collection of taxes.  How many black markets exist (and what is their impact) for legal substances?
Uh, people buy over the counter medication illegally all the time.
 @kramr Oh, here's an idea -- Assess the penalty for distributing without the license apply to the BUYER as well (Or just make them pay the license fee too, say $1000).  The dealer may want to risk years in prison vs a small license fee (with financial gain being the motivator), but I'd bet the guy buying a $40 doesn't want to risk it, when he can go down to 7-11.  Not worth saving the $10 price difference to the unlicensed person.  As well, once it's taxed illegal dealers are going to be hard pressed to make much money as they can't sell it for more than the stores, they need to sell it for *less* otherwise no one has a reason to buy from them.  As with above, it's the same reason people aren't out buying  their 40oz from some street corner, instead walking into a C-store to buy it.
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We've seen this happen in history before in the early 20th Century in this country.  Where's the black market for booze now?  Where was it 5 years after prohibition ended?
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Imagine KATU forums -- but in the early 1900s, and the debate that'd fly over reversing Prohibition.  I'd imagine plenty of people would argue just as you are now, and have no less conviction about what they said either. (I do not doubt your sincerity, I doubt your ability to peer into history and instead of guesses, make predictions based on previous evidence in a similar situation.  This is *exactly* the reason the phrase "Those who do not study history are doomed to repeat it" exists.
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Let's not repeat the same mistake we did then (Prohibition); correct it the way we did before (Legalize). Â We already know what happens when drugs are legalized and controlled.
...just a thought. Since MJ is still a federally banned drug, would it be possible for the DOJ to come after any tax receipts gained by states from the sale of it under the RICO statutes?
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Given the budgetary mess, it would be a blatant cash grab by the feds, but I certainly don't put it past them.Â
Here we are in the 21st century and everyone still has their irrational "Reefer Madness" paranoia about marijuana. I'd much rather be around people who are high, then people who are drunk! Pot doesn't make you barf on your shoes, nor beat up your wife and kids. It doesn't make you pick fights, doesn't make you gamble with money you don't have, oh well â the logic and common sense arguments have been falling on deaf ears since hemp was politically vilified in the 1930s because it was competing with timber as a wood fiber crop.
 @PDX Dave people who drink some as well. Just adding perspective to it all. You think people don't get drunk and high? Don't be naive.
There will be more pot addiction in the state.
 @sortbait While ignorance runs rampant...
 @Torino  @sortbait Oh, it's not running rampant in their family, it's strolling through, taking its time to get to know everyone personally.
Aw the old "money goes to schools" scheme. Can people stop exploiting the school system so they can get high and gamble? I'm not against legalization but still...
 @on shing dao I agree wholeheartedly. Let's vote to legalize it based on the issue, not for secondary benefits.
@RalphCramden, first growing quality medical mj is Very time intesive and is extremely labor intensive at harvest time. Also you would probably not believe the type of people I see at the local club I am a member of, everything from the disabled to lawyers and CEOs. You are sadly misinformed about canabis and those who use it, I am disabled with extreme chronic pain and Rx Morphine nearly killed me after 9 years of it. Medical mj has given me back my life and I am controling my pain level much better than I could on the physically addictive Opiates. Also since I am on disability I am saving medicaid over $1000/month on Rx meds that I do not need because the mj works so well and I have to pay for it not medicaid. How is that a drain on taxpayers? If workers Comp and Osha would let me go back to work at least part time I would try but my pre-existing back problems and my medical mj are held against me. If I want to get off disability I have to start my own business and that is not real easy with a fixed income that is hard enough just to survive on.
 @swede760 so marijuana is more important than work?
@ onshining dao, you must be a Troll to ask that question. It is actually illegal for me to step into the workplace on the Morphine I was on before. My Back is so messed up that Workers Comp. will not cover me so how do I get a real job with out workers comp? Not my rules thiers, If I were to go with out anything to manage my pain level I would be immobile period. I am doing my own physical therapy as insurance does not cover it and I have lost 100 lbs in the last year that I had gained because of the morphine shutting my body down. I am trying to find a way to go back to work but in my situation it takes time and at 50 years old I do not have allot of that. I will say that I am allot further towards my goal of getting off disability than I thought I would at this point but I have a long way to go. Just because I use Medical mj does not mean I am not still ambitious, it would be really easy for me to just sit back and whine about how much pain I am in but I would rather enjoy as much of my life as I have left and Rx drugs sure can't do it for me but a simple plant can. Also I spent 30 years in the work force much of that time working 2 and 3 jobs at the same time, my disability is NOT an entitlement, I paid out of every check for 30 years for that and I lost Everything waiting 5 and a half years before getting my first check. Your question makes you look like an animal closely related to a mule.
 @swede760 So it made your life better. When working with medicines, it's supposed to get you to a point where you no longer need it. Seeing as its made your life better, how come you haven't put it behind you and gone back to work? Attachment. People always bring up the past to excuse their present. The biggest addiction of all is the past.Â
dont get too worked up about anything... even if this passes at 100% in all three states , the federal government will not let any of this happen. (you kids today all wide eyed and naive... this is the carrot at the end of a stick keep chasing it.)
A new way of spelling marijuana? Come on, KATU, use some form of spellcheck softward.Â
 @jpk That's how it will be spelled after it is legalized? :)
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I'll oppose legalization until DUII becomes attempted murder (depraved indifference to human life).
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As for the tax benefits, it is to laugh. Anyone remember the projections for 66/67 and how accurate they were?
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 @ShallowEnder that doesnt make sense... you oppose legalization WHY?
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 @Rey Arteb My nephew and his family were killed by a pot-smoker who crossed the centerline of a highway at 60 MPH in a 35 zone. I am a vehement about all who drive under the influence regardless of what their intoxicant of choice is.
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Legalization without changes to DUII laws will cause more families to share the tragedy. Anyone who thinks that legalization will not increase the numbers of people who use is delusional. (See use numbers following repeal of prohibition.)
 @ShallowEnder i agree... DUI for marijuana should have been in Oregons M-80. Washingtons law does have the marijuana limitations for DUI
 @ShallowEnder  @Rey Arteb And what were the numbers before prohibition?
I doubt taxing it will actually bring in any huge amount of cash, but the savings from reduced prison/jail populations would make it worthwhile. Now, add that to the ability to actually have 'more jail space' for those that actually should be seperated from society such as the guy who was released from jail and ended up killing another person in salem a few weeks back or so. I don't see any downside to legalization as long as it's treated equivelent to alcohol.
 @Peregrine the state makes over 7 million dollars each year in fees with the current OMMP.
(that is by taxing the 50,000 sick and dying people in oregon once a year)
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the numbers would be in the billions maybe even tens of billions in income.
(you would also have to consider it would make oregon a tourist destination adding another billion in revenue)
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 @Rey Arteb  @Peregrine OMG the englightened Reverend Dr. Rey Arteb King Jr. thinks Oregon will get BILLIONS from the state. You have to sell a ton of marijuana to make that happen. I don't think the projections are accurate. The proponents have their own agenda. It's why I don't support legalization.
 @on shing dao  @Rey Arteb  @Peregrine harborside medical center in California made over 21 million dollars last year just off of medical patients alone.
thats one dispensary out of thousands, if it were opened up to the public multiply that times 5 or even 10...math is a funny thing.. it helps make FACTS out of projections.
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i predict each dispensary would sell several tons..(2000-4000 pounds) each year
Legal or not, people are still going to smoke. Got it? Good.
Headline: "Legalized marijuiana could be tax windfall, but skeptics abound"Â What was the headline writer smoking?
 @HenryBowman Not what I grow.  Probably that 'spice' designer-drug crud.
I think the use of this money will be way better than paying off debt to the fed and other banks!
 @portlandborn83 Feds would have to legalize it before they'd tax it :)
"We all know there's a market for marijuana, but right now the profits are all going to drug cartels or underground," said Brian Vicente, a lawyer working for Colorado's Campaign To Regulate Marijuana Like Alcohol."
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It will still go underground even if it's legalized. Growing pot is easy. It's a weed. There will be folks that grow it just because they can sell it and make extra money. It will be cheaper than "government" pot because there is no middle man or tax attached to it.
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Only those who are unemployed and not looking for work, those who want to be unemployed, or those who suck off government will be buyers and users of pot. Those that have a job at a company with a drug testing policy won't be using it unless they want to be unemployed.
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Not much will change. The flow of money will be redirected. That's about it.
 @RalphCramden HA!  Finally QR'd you.  Nice :)
 @RalphCramden Ralph: as to growing it, I see no reason to lift the already heavy sentences available for intent to distribute by simply adding "without a license";  Wanna sell pot?  Pay a $1000/year grower's fee (under 25 plants) for a license to do so. If not, 10 years in prison sounds about right.  For cryin' out loud -- if someone is stupid enough to STILL evade it when a legal means exists, lock 'em up.  And I won't reiterate my situation; you're speaking in generalities about users and already know mine differs.
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We also forget, that by legalizing it, we also allow for the hemp industry to start up again in the US, a great competitor for corn in the fuel/food/livestock/clothing areas -- legalizing it isn't just about recreational or medical use -- hemp has a thousand uses that our state could enjoy (and for god's sake, can we at least get hemp (less than 1-2% THC content) legalized if nothing else?); that alone would create jobs, and offer more clothing/food/fuel choices in our area (competition is good!), especially considering the exceptionally fast growing season -- truly a renewable crop.
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[Note: figure for the license fee was pulled out of my rectal area.  It's just a guess, and probably isn't a bad place to start IMHO.  The fee that is, not my rectal area <grin>.]
 @brendan  @RalphCramden You have to pay to garden now?
 @brendan Â
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So the war on pot will not go away. Instead of sending people to prison for possessing an illegal substance we send them to prison for not having a license to grow it.
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The net savings for prison and police investigations for your plan will actually cost more money since current terms for possessing with intent to sell is less than a year. The cost for each person in prison for not having a license will be 10 times what is now.
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Someone can get 5 years for manslaughter but 10 years for growing pot without a license? Interesting concept.
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As for hemp, Nebraska is full of it growing everywhere. There are plants that are 15 feet tall growing along the Platte river on I80. After all it is a weed and will grow almost anywhere.
@RalphCramden @brioe162 Pot is easy to grow; in fact, it will often grow just to spite you, as it's an exceptionally hardy plant.  I've had clones that I thought were dead, and manged to bud (and in fact, saved that particular hybrid I have from an accidental unique crossing that got me the seeds).  Now, that plant didn't yield much as an adult, but did allow me to get three more clones in good shape.
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I put that paragraph there because I'd like to very openly acknowledge that yes, growing it is very easy -- often with NO care from a human.
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My argument is that there is a HUGE range from "growing in a field" to "cultivated indoors to produce maximum yield/potency/maturation time".  Pot had indeed changed since 45 years ago, and has been bred for those features.  Those features do take a lot of effort.  I'm on my 3rd generation now, and am starting to get it right (My yield is really low, though the potency and maturation times are spot on).  You have to understand, I'm a fairly intelligent person, and love science and all sorts of geeky stuff -- this is far more a science project to me than anything else. (And yes, I'm probably one in a million, most growers do not give a fecal matter about the geek fun at growing a plant.)
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Just as anyone can grow corn, getting good quality high yield corn took genetics and a lot of time on the farmer's part to grow it.  Agriculture has changed immensely in the last 50 years as a field and while many aspects of growing pot are easy (exceptionally easy in fact), the ones that count in a 'grey market" are not so easy.  There's a ton of good weed out there, and none of it came from someone shoving some seeds in dirt and coming back 12-16 weeks later.  Someone took careful time to take care of pests, to check soil pH, carefully control water (the resins are a defense (among other things) against dehydration; purposefully withholding water to the last moment creates much more potent pot).  I spend at least 30 minutes/day with my plants and there are much more anal people than I.  Just to give an example (My ex called DHS and tried to cause me trouble) DHS was here 3 weeks ago.  (And yes, I passed, the allegations were completely unfounded, she's done this about 8-10 times over the last decade).  The Beaverton PD was here twice to check on my grow and my 3 plants (Yes, I know, OMG, I don't grow the maximum amount!) were days from harvest.  My clones (under a diff light cycle) were in the laundry room; they 'suggested' I place the plants in the lockable closet.  (My son is 16 -- he knows the clones/plants are useless until harvest for anything recreational).  Those clones are now just getting back to growing -- from 3 days of the flowering light cycle -- until I could get them into a locked place as well.  I know there's no need to lock up immature plants, but one does not discard a police officer's advice if the advice is prudent, ya know?  That little change cost me three weeks to get them back into vegetative state, and of course, the loss of the growing time.  Minor crap can change the whole crop.
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OK, I'll stfu now, but my argument stands that it's a lot harder to grow GOOD pot, than it is to just 'grow pot'.
 @brioe162    @brendanÂ
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I grew my own pot 45 years ago in all kinds of weather. It was easy to grow then and it's easy to grow now.
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No more time consuming than growing good tomatoes.
 @RalphCramden  @brendanÂ
I know both home brewers and home growers. And to be honest, Ralph, you're horribly underestimating it is to grow bud. Sure you can grow the plant really easily, hemp grows everywhere. But it is really time consuming, and tedious, to make good bud. I've seen growers who've been growing for the last 20 years accidentally mess up a whole crop because of one little missed detail.
 @brendanÂ
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Distilling alcohol is expensive, labor intensive, and time consuming. Growing a weed is easy and not a whole lot needs to be done. Just plant it and nature will take care of the rest. Pot is a weed and will take over just about everything.
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People will grow their own. That you can count on and they won't be paying for a license. And government will not be putting folks in prison for not getting a license to grow it.
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They are letting out folks with more serious violent crimes due to over crowding.
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 @RalphCramden So is Iowa.  And most of it isn't smokeable -- it's hemp, volunteer plants/offspring from back in WWII.
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1 year?  That's awfully low IMO; I think it would not create as much as you'd think; you're presuming everyone will evade it.  I think it'll go more like this:  You see two buddies, selling pot.  One said fuq the man, and has $1000 more in his pocket, but is serving 10 years.  Or his cousin, who paid the $1000, and doing well and doesn't worry about cops.  Which are you going to do?
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Look at what happened with the 'government' alcohol we have now <shrug>; you can make booze cheaper than in the store (I make root beer the old fashioned way with yeast), yet the enforcement of jailing illegal alcohol distributors doesn't cost the state all that much (And boy, do they make a killing on the taxes). Â There's a huge difference between breaking the law because there is no other choice & breaking the law when you had legal means to otherwise accomplish something. Â Most will choose to be legal -- the rest are stupid.
I love that people think it will change society. People that smoke already smoke, people that dont, dont. Its not gonna make more smokers. It will change where the money goes, which can be beneficial. To say legalizing it will make for lazy americans is crazy, it cant get any worse
We have voted 3 times in Az. to pass it's legalization.. 3 times it passed.. 3 times our legislators stepped in and told we misunderstood what we voted for... laughable... to all those opposed to legalizations keep in mind: 'Reefer Madness' went from a governement propaganda film to a comedy.
FREE THE WEED.!!!!!!!!
We dont need a lot of pot addicts. Â It needs to stay illegal.
You need to educate yourself. People don't get "addicted" to pot. Read up. Watch some of the excellent documentaries on Netflix. People get addicted to cocaine, heroine and prescription pain medications and antidepressents. Marijuana has been used for centuries to disrupt pain and numberous other physical ailments. For many people it's not even about getting high it's about feeling better. If you don't smoke that's your choice. For others who do smoke, regardless of the reason it's not your concern any more than it's your concern if they go to the liquor store and have a few drinks.
 @PTLD CITIZEN If people don't get addicted, how come they smoke EVERYDAY? Ya, getting high makes you feel better. If you want legalization that fine but at least admit marijuana has its cons. It's abused terribly.
 @on shing dao  @PTLD CITIZEN There's no need for millions of things in life.  But they're still *nice*, and everybody is different as to which they like more than others..
 @brendan  @on shing dao  @PTLD CITIZEN I smoked pretty much daily for a long time. It's behind me now. There's no need for recreational use of anything after the age of 24. It's just attachment after that.
 @on shing dao  @PTLD CITIZEN Not surprising that you missed the point, which was to not mistake correlation as causality.  You're being out-smarted and out-debated by so-called potheads.  Might wanna give your 'facts' a reality check.  Your logic still stands at fault regardless of what you think of my arguments or what metaphors or similes I may use.
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Consider this an intelligence test: "If people don't get addicted, how come they smoke EVERYDAY?"  Name which fallacy (or fallacies) you used there.  If you can't figure that out, sorry, you're not intelligent enough to continue debating -- about any subject:  http://d.facdn.net/art/two0wls/1305669798.two0wls_our-discussion.jpg
 @brendan  @PTLD CITIZEN You need oxygen to live, not marijuana. I can't believe you would compare the two.Â
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If this is a big problem for you life isn't so hard is it? Stop sounding like it is.
 @on shing dao  @PTLD CITIZEN People seem to need air everyday; doesn't mean we're addicted to breathing.  Check your logic.
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Idiots will always find things to abuse.  Alcohol, gambling, glue, whatever -- that doesn't mean that those that *can* use without abusing should have to pay the price; one or two kids in the class wanna be jerks, and you wanna take recess away from the whole class; punish those that abuse, not the responsible ones.  Start punishing the idiots.
 @sortbait With all due respect, what we don't need is ignorant individuals like yourself weighing in on the topic. Educate yourself with regard to cannabis and report back. If you value facts, you'll find the foolishness in your comments.
 @Torino  @sortbait I wouldn't use such harsh words but this is a delicate plant. It just needs to be left alone and handled by people who are trained with it. Just getting a bunch of people hooked on it doesn't serve the purpose of legal recognition any good.
I agree completely. I sent a reply to "sortbait" before I read your comment. I suggested (he or she) educated themselves.
 @PTLD CITIZEN Just trying to warn before you invest too much time :)
 @Torino  @sortbaitThey're a troll, that's all.  And not a good one either, my 16yo son could argue circles around this nutter.  He can't even follow rules of debate -- against pot heads; doesn't say too much about them.