Longview mayor: Can't say 'Jesus' in City Council invocation
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LONGVIEW, Wash. - Longview clergy who perform the opening invocation at City Council meetings have been directed not to mention Jesus Christ by the city's mayor.
With the potential for a lawsuit looming, Mayor Don Jensen told the head of the Kelso-Longview Ministerial Association that the invocation must be nonsectarian.
The new rule means that God can be mentioned, but that's it.
Longview's city attorney said there's legal precedent allowing God to be mentioned during government meetings, but the law is less clear on whether mentioning Jesus Christ advances or promotes Christianity.
That led the mayor to talk with the Christian ministers, which in turn led them to declare they will no longer perform the invocations.
"They've asked us for years to schedule those invocations and we are those who believe Jesus is the Son of God," North Lake Baptist Church Pastor Mark Schmutz said.
He said the opening prayer that's been a tradition at Longview City Hall for generations may now be a thing of the past after Jensen told him "we need no longer speak the name of Jesus or Jesus Christ or even use the pronouns He or Him."
Schmutz said the mayor made it clear the prayer now needs to be nonsectarian in an effort to satisfy residents who attend council meetings and complain about the Christian references.
"We could say God and we could end with Amen but we shouldn't be specific about which religion or which God we're calling upon," Schmutz said.
But Longview's most outspoken atheist, Dan L. Smith, said invocations shouldn't be tweaked, they should disappear from the agenda altogether.
"I do not want public prayer in my public building," he said. "If I could have it my way there would be no religious – start the meetings with the banging of the gavel, and let's go."
To make his point, Smith has written Longview's mayor and city attorney mentioning, he says, not threatening, the possibility of a lawsuit.
"People talk about lawsuits on a regular basis and nobody wants litigation, so you get to this place where it's just easier not than to fight this fight," Schmutz said.
Schmutz said he understands the pressure city leaders face, but you won't see him at the next council meeting censoring his own beliefs.
"We are ministers of the Gospel of Jesus and to not speak the name goes past our own convictions,” he said.
Mayor Jensen could not be reached for comment Wednesday night. But city attorney Jim McNamara said the decision by the Ministerial Association does not mean the invocations will not continue.
The City Council did not have an invocation at its last meeting. It's not clear if there will be an invocation at the Council's next meeting a week from Thursday.
An invocation at a government meeting is not a good idea. Church and state should be kept separate. And everyone who is upset, please remember that there are many religious people who do not follow Jesus. There are many paths to God.
Go to church and talk about Jesus
Think the same as john
Isn't it funny that not only does this story not show up anymore on the home page, but doesn't show up on their "most popular" list?
Because we all know this is the most commented on story of the last week or so.
Hmmmmm...
then don't have an invocation!!
Does this mean the Christmas program is cancelled .....lets take away holiday pay for Christmas for all city/government employees, that might help the budget. It should not be a paid holiday, its about Jesus...
Mayor has Bad taste and definitely a constitutional faux pas!!
Nicely said
this is wrong
I am getting so tired of people coming into the United States of America and getting OUR traditions taken away from us. You came here for freedom so leave our freedoms alone. You made the decision to come here and this is our traditions.
I am so tired of our rights being taken away because one or two people don't like it. I'm sure if it was Buddha or Allah or something like that it would be ok. It is time to take back our rights!!!
Maybe its time we keep church at church no matter what kind and if you wanna pray go ahead on your own time to your own god.....Our forefathers wanted us to recognize we are not the supreme being because they were smart enough to know religious fears are an easy way to control the masses...study some history .... no way to prove which religion if any is right so lets let politics stick to the facts
Would they be satisfied if he mentioned Satan?????????
If were going to allow religions into a city council, or any US governmental, meeting to do an "invocation" then we have to allow ALL religious rights, ceremonies and rituals, and by the time the pagans, Hindus and others were done there would be no time left for official government bussiness. There are MANY good reasons our founding fathers did not want our goverment to include ANY religion in our political activities.
Good. Keep your religion out of my government!
You can mention God but not Jesus. Why does that name scare people?
If they want to pray let them do it in their own homes and let the ministers pray in their churches that they pay no taxes on. Any hint of any religion has no place in city or government buildings of any kind. The religious right has worked hard for years to erase the lines between church and state.
@Just say'n The have a legal right to prey anywhere that they choose!
J.O. you need to go back and re-read the declaration of independance again. As for mr. mayor, if you don't like the reference to Jesus Christ put in ear plugs or come in late.
separation
Dan L. Smith hit it on the head in the story, there should be no religious ceremony during, before, or after a City Council meeting. If they want to meet up at a church and hold a meeting before hand, they have every right to. Imagine the outrage if City Council requested a Satanic, Muslim, Wiccan, or Heathen prayer instead. We are a Secular nation that encompasses so many different religions, they were never meant to be one with our government.
so who is he to be invoking during his invocation?
If they won't let the clergy use the name of Jesus Christ, then maybe they shouldn't use clergy at all. The Bible says no one comes to the Father(God) except through Jesus. If they can not use His name then their prayer is just a bunch of words, so what is the use. Just to make the people of the town and the council feel better about themselves?
We still live in the land of the free and free speech!! Speak on Pastor!!
Zackly what I was gonna say, Chris.
There should be NO invocation at ANY public meeting such as this, period. in·vo·ca·tion (nv-kshn) n. 1. The act or an instance of invoking, especially an appeal to a higher power for assistance. 2. A prayer or other formula used in invoking, as at the opening of a religious service. 3. a. The act of conjuring up a spirit by incantation. b. An incantation used in conjuring. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/invocation
Well, it makes those who are religious feel discriminated upon when they can't even exercise their own right of the freedom of speech. If they can't even hear anyone utter Jesus' name, how do you think those who are religious feel when the kids of America must learn about Evolution and Atheism as the truth, and to be constantly told to 'hush up' about their convictions? Let's all be tolerant of each other. If Christians must not be Christian in public, then Antheists, Buddhists, Muslims, etc. also cannot. Be consistent, people! And on the matter of it being a lack of seperation of church and state, I think that it's hard as a Minister to keep his entire livelihood and mindset out of decisions he makes, and out of his politics. A person who is madly in love with his/her church/religion cannot just 'save it' for the 'appropriate' time. You can't bubble-wrap the world! Not everyone is going to be kind to you and do only what you feel comfortable with in your mind, and I'm sorry that people haven't learned that they can't control what others do/say! After all, Christians must also constantly deal with intolerance, bigotry and ignorance!! BLARGH.
Then everybody in the council meeting should stand up and say 'Jesus', 'Allah', 'Buddha, 'Hail Mary', or whatever. What would he, Mayor Don Jensen, do then?Â
He has a problem that ONLY Jesus can help! Pray for him...
We can use the word God, but not Jesus, unless in swearing. I am all for Jesus.
Now, Jesus is a pretty popular latin name, so it begs the question, What if someone elected has the name Jesus?Â
Or, if someone speaking to the council has the name Jesus?
I mean, if the name is what's so offensive, then we should certainly have all 'Jesus' banned from participation, right?
If the name is uttered in chambers, surely someones head will explode, so we'd better just call him John... oh, wait, that's in that fairy tale book...Â
How about we agree to call him Phred.. That seems inoffensive enough.Â
over 360 comments on this? You guys just kill me. LOL.Â
@MarkKpic It's bigger, im sorry but an inch can't be given in something that is to be absolute - the seperation of church and state.  The infringement on our founding documents is what I take offense too, not to mention the fact that keeping it secular protects these religious folk whether they are aware of it or not. Â
@OliverNicholas 'WE hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness'
The CREATOR!???
OMG.... Burn that evil document. It made mention of a 'creator'.... It's an outrage, the infringement on our founding documents!
LOL... Like I said, the armchair intellecutals are really amusing on this forum.Â
@Freedom1267 @MarkKpic @OliverNicholas The establishment clause was formally incorporated into the US Constitution in 1947 through the Everson V Board of Education, 330 U.S. 1 (1947) case heard by the SCOTUS. There have been at least 10 major cases heard before the SCOTUS where the establishment clause has been upheld by the SCOTUS.Â
While you are correct in that there is no literal statement of a 'separation of church an state' in the US Constition (the origins of the phrase are said to have come from Federalist Papers, and some say that the phrase originated from Thomas Jefferson), it is now (legally) a recognized component of the US Constitution through SCOTUS precident.Â
An excerpt from the majority opinions written by Justice Hugo Black  RE: Everson V Board of Education, 330 U.S. 1 (1947);
 'The "establishment of religion" clause of the First Amendment means at least this: Neither a state nor the federal government can set up a church. Neither can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another. Neither can force nor influence a person to go to or to remain away from church against his will or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion. No person can be punished for entertaining or professing religious beliefs or disbeliefs, for church attendance or non-attendance. No tax in any amount, large or small, can be levied to support any religious activities or institutions, whatever they may be called, or whatever form they may adopt to teach or practice religion. Neither a state nor the Federal Government can, openly or secretly, participate in the affairs of any religious organizations or groups and vice versa. In the words of Jefferson, the clause against establishment of religion by law was intended to erect "a wall of separation between church and State."
The part of this opinion brief that is most applicable regarding the opening prayer would be (IMO): "Neither a state nor the Federal Government can, openly or secretly, participate in the affairs of any religious organizations or groups and vice versa"
To me, the difference would be if the city council said an opening prayer prior to officially opening the meeting, while not in session, and that it did not require participation by anyone.Â
Even then, however, I suspect that someone would get their athiest panties in a bunch if it took place on or in a 'government' building.Â
@MarkKpic @OliverNicholas Separation of Church and State is not mentioned anywhere in the U. S. Constitution! ANYWHERE!!!
@OliverNicholas @MarkKpic Children of enlightenment?
ROFLMAO..
Serously, man. Your killin' me.Â
It's fine. You win. There is no god, and we cannot mention Jesus in the Longview city council meetings.Â
Yes, armchair intellecutals are really a pretty funny bunch.Â
BTW, I would include myself in that catagory. Tastes fine to me.Â
@MarkKpic @OliverNicholas It makes not hint to Christianity, and at the time many of them were Deist - this was before evolution was theorized and researched. Having a stance as agnostic or diest was what many children of the enlightment had, these men that wrote our secular documents.Â
Armchair intellectuals? Was this meant to be insulting; poor taste if so.
So, invite ALL the clergy in the Longview area to participate, not just the Christians, and the atheists can go have a cigarette during the prayer. What's the problem? Or invite the atheists to offer a moment of silence once a month in honor of the veterans who make a free City government possible. They certainly have right to not believe as much as the religious have the right to believe. You don't want a blessing or a statement of thanks for your government, don't make one. All the "Church and State" thing says is that the government shall establish no religion, not that the government's officials shall not be able to hear a prayer, or say one if they feel like it, or FEEL like they need one. I've been in city government, and there are times when I definitely felt the need.
My question to those who don't believe in a God is why are you so upset that someone says the name of someone who supposedly doesn't exist? If to you it is a nonsensical thing, than what is the big deal. I don't get it. Why are your non beliefs more important than a religious persons beliefs. Why do feel discriminated upon if someone mentions God or Jesus Christ but it is okay to discriminate against those that believe he exists. There is nothing in our constitution that states that we can't have religion in government. Nothing. It was a Supreme court decision based on an opinion. You want to impose your lack of a faith in a higher power on me. How is that any different than what you say that we of faith are doing. You can't have it both ways. Oh but apparently you can because people are so afraid of standing up to you because you might "sue". If I can't get my way than you better watch out because the courts are my friend. For those who want an informed understanding of how this phrase, "separation of church and state" has been misused and misunderstood there are two good books on the market that will make things much clearer if you have the guts to read them. Thomas Jefferson and the Wall of Separation between Church and State by Daniel L Dreisbach and Ten Tortured Words by Stephen Mansfield
North Korea and Al Queda are not nearly the threat to the world that Christianity is.
so, an invocation is okay but mentioning Jesus Christ is wrong? how odd is that!
you are taking a letter written by Thomas Jefferson out of contexts look it before you type its a term to protect the church from the government not keep it out a wall of rights God given rights or inalienable rights like to worship God to speak about Jesus freely oh and by the way Thomas Jefferson was a christian
America is NOT a Christian nation and never was. "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion..." The Treaty of Tripoli, Signed by John Adams, 1797 "History, I believe, furnishes no example of priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government." Thomas Jefferson, 1813 "Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise." James Madison, 1774
Good. Â Adults shouldn't tell each other fairy tales before getting down to serious business. Â Kick the god botherers out of the chamber and get the work of the city done.
to be honest i'm glad, i am tired of religious people shoving their crap down our throats and number two this supports our admement rights in this country we legally support the seperation of church and state. every time you swear on a bible in a court, say under god in a public school your violating your own rights. no one should be forced into that. i understand being religious and faithful, i fully support your right to beliefs, i also support my right to not have it in a governement setting.
Keep church and state separated.
There are all sorts of ways to pray beautifully without mentioning Jesus Christ, just as there are all sorts of beauitul ways to represent Christ without mentioning Christ.
This man has every right to mention Jesus's name
b s
And to everyone saying that lack of religion is the reason for the downfall of everything.....TOO MUCH "religious freedom" (of only the approved ones of course) has started more wars, been the cause of more deaths, and has encouraged hatred towards more people than ANYTHING else.