Northwest mill owners take aim at subsidized products from China
EUGENE, Ore. - States Industries makes hardwood plywood, the stuff used to make kitchen cabinets and all kinds of furniture.
But U.S. manufacturers like States Industries face competition from China - competition that a growing chorus of voices is calling illegal.
Northwest mill owners say China is dumping the country's subsidized hardwood products in the U.S. market.
"This is jobs," said Roger Rutan with Timber Products Company in Springfield. "You can look at it, stare at it right in your face. Subsidies and incentives for export. They subsidize loans. They subsidize employee wages."
Those subsidies have given China 60 percent of the U.S. hardwood market, mill owners contend.
They want the U.S. International Trade Commission and Commerce Department to get tough.
In the mills' corner: Rep. Peter DeFazio, D-Oregon.
"We've at least convinced the initial set of bureaucrats that we've got a strong case," DeFazio said. "I mean to me, it's an open-shut."
The mills want a duty or tariff slapped on the Chinese products, penalties up to 200 percent.
Having just gone through a presidential campaign where jobs were front and center, this sort of trade dispute is where the rubber meets the road. DeFazio expects quick action on the petition against China.
"If we have a level playing field, we think that our products will be preferred over the Chinese," said Mike Taylor, president of States Industries.
DeFazio thinks the case is so strong that temporary measures could go into place early next year.
"I'll be pushing hard for that," he said. "I mean, if we lose this industry, it's not coming back."
A friend of mine had a successful furniture business but he said the products come in from China cheaper than American companies can buy the raw materials.
This is the same thing that's been being said for a long time. We cannot compete with communist countries because their governments allow them to make a cheaper product. Â All imported products from countries where they can make them substantionally cheaper because of their government subsidies, extremely low wages or government supplied infrastructure, and government paid for job training, should be slapped with tariffs to make the prices comprable to US products. Also, China is indeed facing a wood shortage, they also import some of the lumber they use internally or make for exports. They are choosing to deplete their resources for quick export profit. Â If we have sufficient raw resources there's no way we should be importing a good like wood from China. Â Not even beginning to mention the accidental importation of wood pests. Â
So, we here in Or-E-Gon can't make a product cheaper (from an abundant source and with almost zero transportation cost) than China, which is an ocean away and has almost no trees?
Â
The shame is on us my friends.
Â
@snarkOsaurus no, because Oregon doesn't have a communist mega-government subsidizing the low wages of its sweatshop workers. Is that what you would prefer?
 @snarkOsaurus They have lots of trees.
 @snarkOsaurus I can tell you're trolling for suckers because you can't -- even phonetically! -- pronounce the name of our state. Â
Secondly, where did you get the idea that China " . . . has almost no trees?"?! Â Never been there, have you? Â Basing your opinion on some model like Afghanistan, aren't you? Â Don't have a real clue, do you? Â Please, educate yourself before you remove all doubt, won't you?
They're subsidized and they're crap products, too.
I would love to buy American if there was anything American to buy...but so many stores have chosen to or had to sell out and stock crapufactured in Chinese factories, there's not we can do.
 @Mikey When it comes to "Made In America!" or "Proudly Made In America!" you have to take a bag of salt to market with you.  Many things purportedly "Made In America" would have to be labeled (that is, if "Truth-In-Advertising" laws had any teeth!) "*Assembled* In America with Parts Made By Slave Labor In Some Tiny Little *hit-hole You've Never Heard Of."
@Gravity Works! @Mikey at Wal-Mart's China website, in the About section, they proudly boast that 98% of their products are locally-sourced. Remember "Wal-Mart. Made in USA?"
Just imagine what the products will cost if competition isn't allowed. Â A lot of this started with the spotted owl BS. Â The environmentalist bums along with our worthless government destroyed the wood products industry because of a worthless bird that isn't even good to eat. Â Now we have to live with their decisions. Â So, instead of blaming the Chinese or Canadians or whoever, blame the environmentalists and your low-life politicians. Â Maybe we should export these idiots to China. Â Won't work, they already have enough garbage to deal with. Â They don't want ours.
@boomer total propaganda. Conversely, you might as well blame the entire industry for the arson fire at Warner Creek, (burn and old growth forest, own a BLM official, and you can get fire-sale clearcut prices). Might as well blame the mill industry for not being able to produce metric wood in the '90s even though nobody else in the world wants a four-by-eight FOOT sheet of plywood. The fact that loggers and mill workers aren't capable of ADAPTING like the rest of us have had to do in our careers puts them in the same narrow ecosystem as the spotted owl, but, there was a log truck owner in Salem who toured me through his private restored B-25 bomber while logging company owners blather out about tough the economy Is. I'm not hick enough to be that much of a chump, I guess. If you want to look at low-life politicians, read about the Timber Salvage Rider.
@boomer Your post is full of ignorance and stupidity.
 @boomer Well, you're totally wrong when it comes to " . . . the spotted owl BS."
Â
Spotted owls had absolutely ZERO impact on the *hardwood* industry, only fir and mixed evergreen old growth harvests were impacted by that. Â Hardwood for the local plywood industries is primarily grown on large acreages as single-species crops and there is no negative environmental impact (aside from those who use pesticides and herbicides which *might* enter the groundwater or runoff streams).
"This is jobs," said Roger Rutan with Timber Products Company in Springfield. "You can look at it, stare at it right in your face. Subsidies and incentives for export. They subsidize loans. They subsidize employee wages."
Â
The US subsidizes a lot of industries. It is part of life in the modern era. Get used to it.
Â
Government should not subsidize anything. Industries should be market driven.
Â
Government subsidies are the reason we are in this recession.
 @RalphCramden The problem is that in China it's all government subsidized. It's putting 2 uneven teams into competition with each other to import raw goods that can be easily made here.
 @beeskneesÂ
The US and state subsidies are a big boon for China who is taking big time advantage of those subsidies.
Â
All subsidies need to stop. Let the market decide what survives and what doesn't.
 @Playanekes    @beeskneesÂ
Correct. We were once a giant among nations. We are now the has been geriatric patient in a nursing home that has to use a walker to get around.
@RalphCramden @beesknees "Let the market decide" Historically, the market favors slave labor. We won WWII because we were bigger--the sleeping giant. We're not the giant here.
 @RalphCramdenÂ
Â
It is also the reason why we put ethanol in our cars.
Â
I don't have an issue with tariffs. I don't necessarily have an issue with subsidies. But they have gone too far and we spend more money (or get less in taxes) because we are trying too hard to engineer good behavior.
Â
I am not so free market as to trust the market to do right, but I am also not so smug as to believe that tax punishment and reward will bring the change that is needed.
Â
This problem started in the 80's with lowering or completely removing tarrifs in stupid "trade agreements"....Remember the , "thousand points of light", and, "new world order" ??
Â
And they have many believing "it's the unions fault"...ya right !
Actually Tariffs increased from Carter 2.9% to Reagan to 3.6%.  They went to 2.8% under papa Bush and declined to 1.6% under Clinton and 1.4% under GW, to 1.3% under Obama. Â
Â
"We should wash our hands before we take hold of clean things â such as the truth."
WHAT ? Your making no sense ??? You're throwing numbers out there ?? There are thousands of different tariff rates AND if you're trying to quote a "congruant" number YOU are sadly WAY off !
Â
You sound like seinfelds mechanic..."51.8 % of all vehicle turns are to the right"...Oh really ??
Â
Now go wash something ! Â
Average Tariff Rate % = Customs Revenue/ cost of Imports (goods).
Summarized by year from 1792 to 2010 . . . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariffs_in_United_States_history#cite_ref-3
Â
Which further references:Â Â (All Updated August 5, 2011)
1. Historical Statistics of the United States 1789-1945; Series M-42-55; Imports (1789-1945)
2. Bicentennial Edition Historical Statistics of the United States Series {Part 2 Zip file: CT1970p2-08;} Series U 1 25; Balance of International Payments Imports 1790 1970
3. Imports 1960-2010
4. Historical Statistics of the United States 1789-1945 Series P 89-98 Excise Tax {labeled: Internal Revenue/Other} Tot. Receipts; Customs, Income taxes
5. Whitehouse Historical Tables 1940-2016; Table 1.1 Tot. Receipts (1901-2010); Table 2-1, 2-4 Excise Tax(1934-2010); Table 2-5 Customs (1940-2010)
6. Bicentennial Edition: Historical Statistics of the United States, Colonial Times to 1970 {Part 2 Zip file: CT1970p2-12;} Series Y 343-351 (1940-1970) Customs, Tot. Receipts, Income taxes; Payroll taxes, Excise; Y342 339 (1940 1970) Receipts; Y-352 357(1789-1939) Government Receipts: Total(1789-1970), Customs (1789-1970), Y 358 373 Excise tax (1863-1970) Income Tax (1916-1970); Series U 1-25 Balance of International Payments Imports(1790-1970)
7. Historical Statistics of the United States Series 1790-1945
8. Bicentennial Edition Historical Statistics of the United States Series 1790-1970
9. U.S. Census Trade Statistic
10. Whitehouse Historical Tables 1940-2016
Â
Don't forget your rubber duckie . . .
 @Lava Sus Manos Who is your quote from?
 @DeaconBugg Â
It is a paraphrased quote from an irreverent but polite blogger @ WorldPress.com back in 2008.  Moniker:  Lave sus Manos. Â
From a guy who wears a tin foil hat !
@sargerator  It is pretty sad (and pretty brilliant) that millionaires can convince those who make $150k that everything is the fault of those who make $40k. Â
Â
Â
Subsidies don't even matter when their people are paid TEN TIMES LESS than American workers. We'll never be able to compete with slave labor.
Â
If you want to make a difference, lobby Congress to end the tax breaks for companies that offshore US jobs!
 @alohan That will not have the effect that you want. You stop US comapnies from moving production from China and a completely Chinese company will step in to fill the void. We will be in exactly the same situation, minus the US corporation paying US taxes on the profits it brings back to the US. It will actually make things worse.
@moej @alohan "minus the US corporation paying US taxes on the profits it brings back to the US."
Â
WTW ?? What taxes ?? Explain ! They're profits are OVERSEAS ! They don't pay US taxes on profits made in china, THATS WHY THEY OFFSHORED ! This is why we have problems here, people don't understand romneys of the US offshore for the exact reason that they PAY NO US TAXES on offshores ventures !!
You mean like the tax amnesty program that the good 'ol irs had ??
Â
And, what profits do they bring back to the US ? They keep their profits offshore in , oh, the cayman islands, UBS and luxembourg..you know, where romney keeps his foreign made profits !
Â
I wouldn't call it a role , just the facts !
Buzzzzt!    You should read.   As moej said - - "paying US taxes on the profits it brings back to the US" - - -  If they bring the $ back they do.  Â
Â
You voted to change it, so I'm sure it's going to get 'fixed'.  You're on a roll today.Â
Legal Americans should have the sole right to jobs in the US and the sole right to create products from our natural resources........Do a bit of research on what Canada demands before shipping their natural resources to China. Raw lumbar products from BC cannot be shipped to China without Canadian processing first.......Leave it to the US give it all away to mexico, illegals and China.
This is a direct result of Clinton's NAFTA and Free Trade policies.   The larger story (not printed here) reported that this particular segment of industry lost has cost Oregon 48,000 jobs. Â
Â
And yes, shipping our raw materials overseas does produce income, but it also has several severe drawbacks.   We need to think about 15 years down the road, not just today.
@NorthernBlackBear  Investors don't think 15 years down the road. Investors think about next quarters results. Decisions are made by investors, not government, not you, not me.
Why do you guys INSIST on repeating fauxe nooze ! Really ? REALLY ?....
Â
"NAFTA was signed by President George H.W. Bush, Mexican President Salinas, and Canadian Prime Minister Brian Mulroney in 1992."
@scoreboard @sargerator right. They were both proponents of NAFTA. I voted for Perot because we all KNEW THIS WAS GOING TO HAPPEN. But, hell no, the Republicans were just as happy to promote "that sucking sound" as the Dems were.
@NorthernBlackBear well, let's all conveniently ignore Bush "ceremonially" signing it with leaders from Mexico and Canada in the first place. I voted for Perot. You people wrecked America. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Free_Trade_Agreement
 @sargerator Why do you insist on name calling and childish posts like "fauxe news"?Â
Â
Bill Clinton signed NAFTA into law:Â
Â
http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/nafta-signed-into-law
Â
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0104566.html
Â
Bush may have signed it but it wasn't approved and signed into law until Clinton signed it. I suggestion you do a little research. Once again you show your ignorance by not doing complete research.
Wrong and Arogant - Both as usual.   Your fishy news reported it also.
Before it was finalized both the US and Canadian governments changed hands, and the bill was 'finished'. Â
Â
Clinton signed it into law on December 8, 1993; it went into effect on January 1, 1994.   Â
http://www.milestonedocuments.com/documents/view/remarks-on-signing-the-north-american-free-trade-agreement
http://economics.about.com/od/foreigntrade/a/clinton_trade.htm
http://www.ontheissues.org/celeb/Bill_Clinton_Free_Trade.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Free_Trade_Agreement
Â
 @FreerideNOT well put. Canada is doing a lot of things right. They also aren't afraid to actually use their natural resources to build national wealth. Canada has positioned itself well for the future.
@moej @FreerideNOT Canada has a much larger amount of natural resources per Canadian. By the way, apparently they finally have a Wal-Mart in the Yukon. But when I was in Whitehorse last year, condos were selling for $750,000 and they couldn't build homes fast enough to supply the demand from pipeline workers. Another interesting fact about Canada is, not only do they believe in climate change, they're already considering where to put their new northern ports for when the receding ice opens a northern sea passage.
Demand U.S. made products . This use to be the bread and butter for the N.W. states and you let it go for what..... Lottery money that was used in less than transparent ways?  Lets go back to boomtown ways we used to make money with the timber industry that made Oregon what it was and we can let other countries focus on coal or other less desireable resources  for their income.
I agree but the only problem is that Americans like anything that is free or a bargain. Look at Wal-Mart they will sell anything from Asia that they can make a buck on. Most American people will not pay more for an item that was produced in the US. As far as your comments about the timber industry, those days are gone and I don't feel we will ever be allowed to produce the lumber we once did, with that said the timber communities that have depended on Federal subsidies for the past 20 years need to wean themselves, these dollars will and need to go away. It's time they stand on their own two feet.
Americans more and more are willing to buy American. As far as subsidies how is that when the federal government is the land baron in the state and does not pay local property tax? Nevada, 84.5%,   Alaska    69.1%, Utah 57.4%,   Oregon 53.1%,  Idaho 50.2%, Arizona  48.1%, California 45.3%, Wyoming  42.3%, New Mexico 41.8%, Colorado  36.6%. They should be subsidizing the timber industry. Look how many states they have a monopoly in. Subsidies should be provided in lieu of the property taxes that are not collected.
The question is should they subsidize. If they are holding onto land and not paying property taxes, (some cases where the Fed owns nearly half the state or more) then they should subsidize. The states back east have very little in the way of federal lands. And yes local government does criminal investigations, traffic enforcement, enforces hunting laws, etc. on federal rural lands. If they sold the land, then the new owners would be paying property taxes.
@Brownknight Why should the Federal government pay states or counties property taxes or equiv., when the local government provides no services for it? People who use services should pay the taxes for their own communities. These counties demanding federal payments are worse than any welfare queen.
We Just need to say, "NO" to china Period, We can build gaming consoles, We can create our own Lumber, We can control what we want.
@lee986321  We need to start voting with our CASH. My wife and I have started looking at where things are made BEFORE we purchase. When we bought our vehicle a few months back, we bought the vehicle that had the highest percentage of American content in the vehicle type we wanted and that met our needs. We have carried this forward in the rest of our purchases. Put Americans back to work!