West Linn embroiled in church vs. state fight over teen center
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WEST LINN, Ore. – Fireworks have erupted among West Linn City Councilors as they fight about whether the city should support an after-school teen center.
The new teen center is run by a church and a national organization says the city violated the U.S. Constitution by giving the church money.
The Grand Summit opens next week, and it will be a place for kids after school. The city of West Linn gave a $1,300 grant to nearby Willamette Christian Church to help run the center with the YMCA.
But the city had to ask for the money back after the Freedom from Religion Foundation in Wisconsin said the grant entangles the government with religion because the teen center isn’t The Summit’s primary purpose.
“Twice as much time for church-related activities as for teen center activities, and it was only open two hours every weekday for the general public and the rest of the time it was dedicated to the church," said Andrew Seidel, an attorney with Freedom from Religion Foundation, by phone.
"The idea that Willamette Christian Church is trying to exercise some undue influence, or do something that has been different across cities, across states across America, is odd to me." Chris Yarco with the church told KATU News.
The foundation says the city of West Linn is also in the wrong because city employees are on the board overseeing the center.
The situation got heated at a council meeting Tuesday night when Councilor Teri Cummings complained Councilor Mike Jones was a member of the church and voted to approve funding.
Jones said he is a recent new member of the church and was not a member when he voted on the funds in August.
West Linn officials now say the legal costs of fighting to keep the funding in place are not worth the cost and the church has returned the funds.
I'm far more concerned by apparent conflict of interest by city staff in proposing and approving this then a ridiculous church and state argument. Running a two hour after school program that isn't religious education isn't any kind of violation of the principle.
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Why is membership in a church any different from working for a corporation? Both should require an elected official to recuse themselves and not participate in any debate on in a vote for the simple reason that they will benefit from any money awarded.
When Churches start paying Taxes then they can expect getting Tax money back. You can not have the best of both worlds.
I propose that the Muslim Brotherhood set up a after school teen center.All of you xitans won't be singing your freedom of religon b.s. I can gaurantee that for sure.
Just another step in the direction where some think children are society's burden. They should not be. They should be their parents' burden. We have way too many people in this country that have children but have no clue as to parental responsibilities. Instead they see a world full of babysitters - first it's daycare, then it is school, then it is XBoxes, PS2s, gameboys, cell phones, and TVs. The City is way out in left field if they think they should be spending tax dollars on a church.Â
Why do we need all these before, after school things.. ? Let's get this right, before school it is the parents responsibility as well as after school.. No way should a church receive this money.. NO WAY !Â
If you can not take care of your kids don't have them.. I am tired of hearing about the kids, you want kids, it's your responsibility, surely not mine !
So people think giving these child molesters more money to brain-wash our children instead of teaching them a real education is ok? This is BS by the Church manipulated to make them look like a victim when they are just prowling on the innocent as usual. Keep your religious filth to yourselves.
 @011011000110111101101100Â
So, what you're really saying is we should pull all tax money from public schools and sports programs correct? In case you haven't been reading the news lately that's where the child molesters are in droves.
There is also YMCA groups that watch children at stafford school and athey creek middle school, so maybe they should spend their money elsewhere!
Do you mean "There are?"
Do you mean "Stafford School?"
What does "athey" mean? Oh, you mean Athey Creek Middle School?
To whom do "they" and "their" refer? The YMCA groups? The schools? The parents? The city of West Linn? (If you mean the latter, you should have said "its.")
When you can actually compose a sentence, punctuate it, and capitalize properly, please, do come back to the forum.
@Mechanic Are you an english teacher or something? I've never had my posts analyzed in such a manner and feel that you are wasting your energy trying to correct people such as myself.
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Ya, I've been quite busy this week at conventions, so I didn't capitalize the names of the schools, my bad.Â
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The topic of this article is West Linn spending money on a YMCA youth group that convenes at a church...what I am trying to say is that YMCA also has after school programs at Stafford School and Athey creek, so maybe "they" (West Linn the city) can spend their money on programs at these two schools instead of a church group.
If it was a muslim group this would be praised as cultural diversity.
 @hankhandsome So is this what you would do....
As a kid I took the bus everyday to the YMCA and participated in a summer group activity called Camp Ahoma. It was a fun day with a bit of religious "favors" here and there but the rest of the day was fun hanging with good looking girls and my buddies from Boy Scouts. I had to walk a quarter mile from home to the bus stop and then about a half mile to the Y at the other end. Totally worth it. I hope West Linn finds a way to keep this place available to teens.
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As for tax dollars supporting the church sponsored teen center ........ NOPE!! Not on my watch!!!
Would you rather have an organization that has an idea of keeping kids off the street so they don't commit crimes, or let them run amuck, creating mayhem?Â
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Nice choice, isn't it? I think the new teen facility is great.Â
the liberal NW strikes again, a worthy cause goes out the window for such a silly reason as who is providing the service that is so badly needed.
The church could partner with another organization like the YMCA and provide a youth center. West Linn could give the grant to the YMCA as the oversight organization, and the Y could provide youth center activities.Â
The initial intent and idea may have been worthwhile, but there was an obvious lack of judgement if people with a vested interest in the project were sitting on the board. I'm not a proponent of tax dollars being used for these projects, but even if there was a legitimate need for a partnership between city government and a charitable organization everything must be above board and within the law.Â
While I am not a Christian, the values of Christians (vs Muslims) are close enough to mine, so I would support a christian youth center, but NOT on taxpayer's money. Actually even if it was atheist, agnostic, or whatever center - it is not a place of the government to finance it. Government does LE, CBP, military, basic education, maybe emergency health care and few other things, but youth centers should not be financed by the government - stinks of communism/fascism too much. Not to mention that it is against constitution.
No one can say this decision is about the kids. It is really anti kid.
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Any time a kid can find a safe place to hang out is a good thing. I guess some think the streets are a better place.
 @RalphCramden The streets of west linn are a better place when compared to this horrible ymca program...I once attended the ymca and it sucked bad!
 @RalphCramden NOT if it violates the constitution.
 @felines99Â
The donation to the center does not violate the Constitution, it violates the sensibilities of those intent on contorting the Constitution. There is no language in the First Amendment that says there should be "freedom FROM religion (emphasis mine)" , as the name of their organization implies. The intent and construct of the First Amendment was to prohibit government from establishing a "state church," as was in existence at the time in Great Britain.
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I'm not advocating for the city to give the funds, only saying that contributing to a church-run youth center is far different than establishing a state church. West Linn's right to donate to the center would've been upheld in court, as has every other case of this type that's been challenged on constitutional grounds.
@The Rog @felines99 How about the MuslimBrotherhood establish a after school teen center then? It's only fair.Except all of you rightwing Christians would be soiling yourselves.
 @The Rog It is not "far different" at all!!! It is the first step toward establishing a religion. If you allow the city to give funds to one religious group, you must allow it to give funds to every other religious group. Otherwise, is is tending toward the establishment of a religion. This should be obvious. Perhaps you have a two-by-four lodged in your eyesocket.
 @felines99  @RalphCramden Go find me the exact text in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights that lays out the separation of Church and State.
 @Pelep  @RalphCramden The point was for the government to refrain from favoring any particular religion, or the lack thereof. Idiot.
 @Pelep  @RalphCramden If that comment it directed toward me, congrats -- you're batting two for two.
 @Pelep  @RalphCramden Your arrogance precedes you. I knew that without having to google the subject. Not everyone is as ignorant as you.
@Pelep @felines99 @RalphCramden In the 1947 SCOTUS majority ruling in Everson vs Black.The court ruled that âNo tax in any amount, large or small, can be levied to support any religious activities or institutions, whatever they may be called, or whatever form they may adopt to teach or practice religion.â I don't give a rip if you wan't to worship the invisible sky daddy.Just don't do it on my dime.
 @felines99  @RalphCramden Which given your comment above means you didn't know it wasn't in the Constitution until you looked it up.
 @felines99  @RalphCramden And the point was not to have a state religion or a religious participation requirement for citizenship. Not to bar monies being donated, a cross being placed on public land and so on. And no, most people don't know that. Kudos to you for your quick Wikipedia search.
 @Pelep  @RalphCramden Most people know that the words "separation of Church and State" are not found in the constitution per se. They were used by Jefferson in an 1802 letter to the Danbury Baptists. The principle is expressed in the Constitution, however; try reading the First Amendment.
 @RalphCramden  @Pelep And you're a bitter ex-drug addict who blames your father for your addiction.
 @RalphCramden  @Pelep Chicken.
 @Pelep  @felines99Â
You can't have a reasonable discussion with her. Just a word of warning. I don't waste my time even reading her posts.
 @felines99  @RalphCramden The constitution was never intended to encourage NO religion - it was intended to allow people to choose WHICH religion.
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There's a huge difference.
 @starshadow  @RalphCramden And no one religion was to be given preferential treatment over any other, which is why this venture is not o.k.
People try to do something good and the liberals try to destroy....
 @sortbait Waaaaa... Find something else to blame your life problems  on... This theory of yours is really old.. Quite possibly it may be your mother who didn't hug you enough !
 @sortbait This issue has nothing to do with liberal and conservative. This has to do with public funds and grants, and correct procedure.Â
@sortbait This has nothing to do with "liberalism", sir, nothing to do at all. It is about the constituion. A strict constructionist view of the constituion, really. The way Justice Scalia and his friends say they heyview the constition; are they liberal? Study European history for the 16th thru 18th senduries to understand why the founders were so adamant about this separation of church and state thing you seem to approve of. Or look at Iran,
And please excuse my several examples of fatfngers;
heyview was supposed to be they view;
sendries was supposed to be centuries;
approve was supposed o be dsapprov;Â
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I am a christian but this isn't a christian vs non-christian issue. It is simply an issue of upholding the constitution. It is unlawful for the city of West Linn to give money to a church organization. If this church wants to fund a teen center it will need to finance it through private donations. I am surprised that the church accepted the money in the first place. Maybe they just didn't think about the consequences of the government getting involved in how or what they teach but still I'm surprised.
Vote for Romney and all of your federal tax dollars will go to LDS...true
As a atheist,I don't want to see a single penny of my hard earned dollars going to ant tax-free Religous organization.Why do these groups continually push the boundaries that were specifically set up by the Constitution?
 @noneofyourbizznessÂ
Like most bigots you only see what you want to see. You have no clue how many church/state relationships exist that keep the safety net together in our communities. Name me one atheist/state partnership that can say the same. If people like you had your way and ended all the partnerships with religious-based organizations the holes in the safety net would be big enough for the entire community to fall through. Religious institutions on the whole give back far more in money and volunteer hours to the community than they save on property taxes.
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@ormom Go ahead and name call.Lem me make this crystal clear to you.As a member ofthe Freedom from Religon Foumdation,I will do my part to prevent my tax dollars paying for Christian Organizations from prostelisizing our impressionable children.If you want your kids to attend a Christian after school program, I suggest you send your kids to a Christian School.That being said if you wan't to allow Christians conducting activities on government property,I insist you allow the Muslim Brotherhood to also conduct a after school program otherwise shut up.Got it?
 @noneofyourbizznessÂ
FYI, I have several good friends who are atheist who aren't the least bit bothered by religion. Know why? Because they truly don't believe any god exists and they spend no time thinking about it or being bothered by what believers think and do. Like me, they think people like you are not atheist at all. You can't muster that much hate for something you don't believe in.
 @noneofyourbizzness Â
You are the poster child for the diseased mind and hateful heart of a radical atheist. Go ahead and start your satanic after school center - no doubt that's who you worship anyway - but then you'd have to admit to being a religious bigot just like the Christians you hate so much wouldn't you?
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I think the hatred of God that you and your ilk spread to your children and attempt to spread to the larger society is harmful to my children who come in contact with it but you won't see me or my religion trying to take away your constitutional right to hate. What you don't have is a constitutional right to wipe religion out of the public society and keep it behind walls, and out of your sight, regardless of what you think or try to do with your little foundation. What a hypocrisy you spew when you state " Forcing your belief on my children when they have there own heart and own mind is not going to happen". Yet you have no hesitation to try and force your beliefs and vision of a religion-free society on the vast majority of everyone else who disagrees with you.
If you don't want your children being exposed to religion that's just too damn bad - deal with it - it exists and well over 90% of the US population believes in God, most of them Christian. So your hatred and your $ and the scant 2% of you who call yourself atheist don't get to wipe society clean of religious influence. You'll just have to grow a thicker skin.
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I have no patience for your sensitivities. I pay taxes the same as you and I have to put up with all kinds of minority lifestyles being paraded and promoted in front of my kids in public school that I find offensive. I'm not only forced to pay for it but expected to celebrate it too. What makes you so special that you shouldn't have to put up with things that you find offensive? Every other parent has to put up with crap that they think harms their child too - it's called being tolerant - and it's our job as parents to either try and minimize our kids exposure or be prepared to educate them about why we don't approve of it. If you don't want to live affected by society and all it's diversity of opinion and religion and lifestyles, then move to a mountaintop, and spare the rest of us your hatred and intolerance.
@ormom I'm afraid that you don't get to call the shots on secular society.Fortunately I have the Supreme Court on my side.Inthe 1947 SCOTUS majority ruling in Everson vs Black.The court ruled that âNo tax in any amount, large or small, can be levied to support any religious activities or institutions, whatever they may be called, or whatever form they may adopt to teach or practice religion.â I don't give a rip if you wan't to worship the invisible sky daddy.Just don't do it on my dime.If you insist on pushing this issue I will start a satanic after school center.Your religion is not the national religion as much as you xitans try to make it so.Forcing your belief on my children when they have there own heart and own mind is not going to happen.I will go as far as donating money for a lawsuit to prevent you from conducting your religious quackery on government property and I will win.Your Christian dogma is worse than a std.And to xitans like yourself it stays with (most) for life like herpes. Its a very hard thing to break from. However many have emerged from this disorder but I'm afraid you are a lost cause.I absolutely refuse to allow my children to become a victim of your disease.Keep it to yourself and keep your poison away from my children.
 @noneofyourbizzness Â
Truth-telling isn't name calling. If you don't like the word then learn some tolerance and you won't have to wear it.
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big·otâ noun - a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.
 @noneofyourbizzness Â
Let me make it cystal clear that you have no constitutional basis for your freedom from religion crap - it's freedom OF religion, not from religion. If you don't want your children exposed to religion, which has every right to it's place in society, then that's your responsibility to keep it out of their lives, just like turning off the TV if you don't want your children exposed to the crap the public airwaves bring into your home. You atheists have to learn to live with things you don't like just like the rest of us do.
 @noneofyourbizzness You have your boundaries backwards. The concept was that the State could not set up a State Religion and that how you worshiped or didn't was not to be a bar to your citizenship. It is your side that continues to push the boundaries of what is excluded under the non-existent Separation of Church & State Clause in the Constitution and Bill of Rights.